JustRules

Crew chiefs got an email this week that 129 crews applied and there are 124 games in week 1 of the tournament. 96 in the second round. That means 75% of crews will get at least 2 games.

3 hours ago, snrmike said:

One note.  For accepted penalties against the defense, the play clock should be set to 40 seconds.  Accepted penaties on the offense, play clock should be set to 25.
Everything else in the PDF looks good.

That was a change after the original rule so it's possible the document is outdated.

12 hours ago, Bobref said:

If the crew followed the process for penalty enforcement described in the current Manual, the odds of making this mistake drop precipitously. It’s not difficult.

Watched the clip. The crew did none of the things you should do when enforcing a penalty. No conversation between the U and another official (maybe they had radios and someone communicated to him or the near side wing gave a visual signal? He didn't check off the distance with the wing before moving. He didn't verify with a wing he was at the right spot before putting the ball down. This not only looked like a situation of going to fast. It skipped a bunch of steps that could have prevented this from happening.

4 hours ago, AW0352 said:

How does this crew not know this?   Let’s just say it was on the 6 yard line.   Would they have taken it all the way to the 1?   

Sometimes crews just make mistakes. Someone needs to recognize this isn't right and correct it before the next down. A common communication when the ball is near mid-chain (4 to 6 yards from the LTG), the H will communicate things like "5 will get us one" or "uphill/downhill". What they are saying is a 5-yard penalty by the defense will result in a first down. I wonder if the H looked at the chain and saw the box was in front of the mark midway on the chain an announced "5 will get us 1" without thinking they were at the B8. That was still in the head when the R and U processed the penalty enforcement so they didn't consider half the distance. Maybe they went to fast and overlooked it. None of that excuses this error. They were wrong and this should not happen. But this proves if you don't concentrate and slow down, you will make mistakes like this.

This is one where you have to trust the covering official that is in the right position and looking at all the action. There is no hesitation in his call and he appears confident. But he doesn't oversell to try to convince everyone he is right. I agree this is a very good crew so based on that, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. None of these video angles show anything definitively either way and people on both sides can probably use it to prove it was the right or wrong call.

4 hours ago, Panther25 said:

Could someone tell me if this is accurate? I am unable to find anything directly on the IHSAA's website and I currently can't get on the NFHS site (I am sure it is my error) 

Thanks in advance!

4025playclock.pdf 192.39 kB · 5 downloads

At quick glance this looks accurate. One thing Indiana does differently from a mechanical standpoint is in regards to the dead ball signal (arm raised over their head). If the covering official signals to stop the clock for a first down in bounds or any runner out of bounds or if they signal incomplete, they also need to give the dead ball signal. The IHSAA doesn't think play clock operators are able to know to se the clock to 40 and start it without that signal. I ask the play clock operator every week if they know what to do without that signal and every one has said yes.

On 9/13/2023 at 5:44 AM, FastpacedO said:

Go run on Rose Hulman's Football field, any turf field, and any high school that has Natural grass and let me know what difference you feel (I have done all of the above. The people who play the game at the highest level possible aren't playing on High School natural grass when they do play on Natural Grass. Rose Hulman happens to have NFL grass that was installed when the Colts used their facility for training camp.

Rose did replace that field a few years ago. It ended up being too time consuming and costly to maintain that type of field. It's much harder than a regular bluegrass field. It was an amazing surface. Their turf is also really nice and using some advanced technology thanks to the engineering at Rose, but the Bermuda grass was still better.

2 hours ago, scarab527 said:

I think it's funny that all of the people who play the game at the highest level possible are in near-unanimous agreement that grass is easier on the body, while a bunch of guys sitting on their couches watching them go "Nuh-uh you're wrong!"

To be fair the Bermuda grass the NFL players get to play is very different than the hard ground and Kentucky bluegrass on high school fields. Those surfaces look and feel like an artificial surface but nicer.

This is close. The defender is not guilty of a personal foul against a defenseless receiver if he wraps him up as part of the hit. It looks like the defender may do this, but I can't tell for sure. You also have a potential targeting call since his helmet may have hit the defender high causing the helmet to come off. I can't tell for sure on this video if the helmet was contacted. Helmets do come off on legal  hits like this if they aren't tight enough. 

1 hour ago, AW0352 said:

What is the official rule on the free kick?

They are allowed to line up in a free kick formation (same as a kickoff). Put the ball on a tee and the receiving team has to be at least 10 yards from the ball. If the kick goes through the uprights they are awarded 3 points. It needs to happen near the end of a half. The team needs to have fair caught a kick. And they need to be close enough their kicker has a fighting chance to make it. It's very rare for all those items to line up at the same time.

1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

I think there are a few HS who have started "officiating" as PE class for upper grade students.  The goal being to teach them a little about officiating and even get them licensed as patched officials.  No offense to avid bowlers and pickleball players out there, but I would rather see students enrolled in that than a Lifetime Sports PE class.  

I attended a MS volleyball game last week (read: torture lol) and someone remarked that the HS girl working as a line judge was doing so as a requirement for her officiating class. This is all secondhand info but I'm fairly certain it is happening, and a positive change IMO. 

Correct. The IHSAA piloted this class last year with a few HSs around the state. They are very involved with the efforts to recruit new officials as well. We'll see how good engagement and follow up is from them and the local officials as well.

6 hours ago, Coach Wilhelm said:

8-25-23 Yorktown vs. Muncie Central Play #68

Muncie Central FG Attempt. Yorktown blocks it, and it lands past the line of scrimmage. Players on both teams freeze for a second. Yorktown player picks it up and returns it for a TD. Although we've talked about this rule for years with our kids, this is the first time I've seen it happen in one of our high school games.

Great play! Hopefully they include this. This is a great example of why I tell coaches and players by rule a FG is generally the same as a punt but it can score 3 points for the kicking team. If this had been downed at the spot of recovery, it would have been your ball at that spot 1st and 10. Most think it would return to the previous spot or the 20, but that's now how the HS rule is written. Just like if you punted it to the R5 and downed it, that's where R will get the ball.

10 minutes ago, WCGrad92 said:

Reading his post, he stated that the coaches were in their box, not the officials box, and if ran into while in teh COACHES box, can they tell the ref to get a flag? Not in the Officials box.

The thing is there is no "coaches box". There is the restricted area and team area, but many coaches feel the restricted area is their area and this is the area where the chain crew operates so I assumed that was the area he was referring to. I could be wrong. Teams get excited over there and often get in the way unintentionally. It's not uncommon though for chain crews to have to move through several coaches and players to get to the next line to gain. Since only players entering the field as a substitute and 3 coaches are supposed to be there, it should be fairly clear. But often it's not. It's not likely something that would get flagged. If the chain crew is trying to get into the team area for some reason, that's on them if it gets tight. I've never seen a chain crew try to move in the team area though.

20 minutes ago, tango said:

Like a unicorn... Kudos to LaVille's coach for knowing all the rules. 

Agreed! And kudos to the officials for knowing it as well. Hopefully they submit this for the IFOA training video.

1 minute ago, Julio said:

So they can run into coaches on the sidelines and then tell the referees, who then proceed to throw a flag for a sideline warning on the coaching staff?

The white area where the chain crew moves is NOT for coaches. They are allowed by rule to have 3 coaches in that area between plays, but that is NOT the coach's area. It's the official's area to work and the chain crew is part of the officiating crew. Many schools will have an extra 2-yard belt behind that for the coaches and they will put the players behind that. That is not a rule thing though. If coaches are going to come into the restricted area (the 2-yard white area along the sideline. they need do so without getting in the way of the chain crew. During this dead ball period though they would not get a flag for interference unless they blatantly and intentionally did something to the chain crew or other officials.

31 minutes ago, foxbat said:

We used to use this model, not so much for refs, but for coaches in the youth league and junior high.  We always tried to catch guys that were sticking around town to go to Purdue or Ivy Tech or just back taking a gap semester.  LCC has at least four current coaches that played high school ball there not too long ago.

 

When I coached in the youth league, we paid money for Friday night refs to ref the youth games.  Great experience for the kids as these guys spent lots of time helping the kids understand why things were being called and, probably more importantly, helped us coaches understand a lot of what was being called so we could then go back and reinforce with the kids.  The other thing too is that they were ALWAYS dependable.  We had a couple of older, really involved refs who I think headed up their own crews on Friday nights.  They often brought some of the younger guys from their crews to come and get extra practice in a less hectic environment on Sundays to help them out.  Toward the end of my time coaching, there was one head ref who was bringing an "extra" ref to the games and this was usually a guy who was training to be a ref, but hadn't been certified yet and the other refs helped him understand all of the things like communication, placement, working with the chain gang, etc.  

Youth leagues is where most new officials get their start. It's also where the most abuse happens from parents and coaches. It's also why we lose a lot of new officials. Cleaning that up will go a LONG way to addressing our shortage. The problem is the people doing the abusing don't see what they do as abusing. They feel they are in their right to yell at officials if they feel they are getting something wrong. Cheer for your kid and their team and buy them ice cream after. Leave the officials alone.

6 hours ago, wallyworld1832 said:

Sorry if this isn't the purpose of this forum.  But I had to ask for insight.  I saw a post that went into all about pay as the main way to grow official numbers, which as an Econ major, I get.  But I think we need to think outside the box on things for a better way to add quality, young officials.  We have so many young people graduating HS or College that their playing days are over; it seems criminal not to keep them engaged.  What would the thoughts be to something like this?   We add 1 probationary official to every HS game in Indiana for the 9-week season.  With 317 teams listed, and adding in a few out of state games, at make it 165 games a weekend, and paying say $75 per Probationary official and then do the same but have them but an extra for JV or Frosh games on Saturday (most schools run 3 for Frosh and JV).  It would cost about $225K a year.  Obviously, funding is an issue for this, but it is my opinion that the NFL or in our case, the Indianapolis Colts, might be willing to donate to the IHSAA to help deepen and grow the official pool.  Having seen and heard we have officials with major health issues and concerns still officiating, not for the money, but for the simple fear that if they can't go, then the games won't be played.  Just trying to see if an idea like this is worth pursing or has already been tried.  Thank you.  

Definitely an idea worth pursuing. We would have a hard time finding 165 (or possibly 200+) that would be necessary to fill these spots. These officials would also need to work sub-varsity, middle school, and youth games. That's where we lose a lot of new officials. The behavior of parents and coaches at those levels are the worst. This is true in all youth sports and why most have shortages. Until that behavior changes we will have a hard time retaining new officials. Money will help some of them stick it out long enough, but most leave because it's not worth it. Something similar that would help would be getting these people to be on the chain crew and/or clock operators. That's something other states do with new or retired officials. The main issue will be finding the people to do it.

12 hours ago, Bobref said:

This chart explains the enforcement spot under the newly-amended NFHS Rule 10.

Two issues with this chart. It only applies for plays with no loss of player possession (even if recovered by A). Thus the "Succeeding Spot" references create a lot of confusion if the runner fumbles. Then the basic spot would be the end of the related run. For a regular running play with no loss of possession the end of the run and the succeeding spot are likely the same spot.

The rules editor really made this much more complicated than it needed to be. The only real change is that for most fouls by the offense that occurred behind the LOS (exception for things like illegal forward pass, intentional grounding, illegal kick or bat) or any foul that occurs during a running play that ends behind the LOS, the enforcement spot is the previous spot. So holds by the offense behind the LOS and defensive holding or facemask on a running play where the run ends behind the LOS. Anything else is the same as last year.

29 minutes ago, gindie said:

The play at 25:50...was it correctly blown dead?  There was a fumble on the play, and when the down was replayed the QB ran 50 yards for a score.

 

The announcers say it was blown dead at the snap, but I'm not sure that's true. This would be the correct enforcement if he was down before the ball came out as well. I believe that's what the crew ruled. Based on the replay I saw it was very close and a judgement call by the officials. An illegal shift like this is a live ball foul at the snap that does not shut down the play.

7 hours ago, gonzoron said:

Referees have Groupies? Cool.

Sometimes new officials not yet ready for varsity games or maybe someone interested in being an official. It could also be a retired or injured official helping out. The fact he had full gear on I would expect he was ready to go in case someone got hurt.

16 hours ago, AW0352 said:

At the Castle v EVV North game there was an official in all black on the sideline with a clipboard.   Guessing he was scoring the crew? 

Could have been an observer, but they usually sit in the press box to get a broader view of the mechanics. More likely someone tagging along with the crew and tracking fouls.

10 hours ago, npcougar15 said:

About every sectional in Indiana you can go through and there is a clear top 4. Between Sagarin, AP poll, Coaches Poll, common sense, etc. the IHSAA should be able to figure it out. And guess what? If you are a 2 seed and should be a 1, you still don't see that other top team until the championship which is how it should be. It's such an easy fix, I have no idea why they don't do it.

The main reason they don't do it is there are enough coaches who want the chance to get an easy draw in the first round if they have a team that struggled. If they seed the top 4 in a sectional, they are assured of going on the road in the first round to a much better team. The current system the 2-7 team has a chance to draw the 1-8 team in the first round and get a tournament win. As long as enough coaches are of that mindsight, this will never be changed.

7 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

Since ihsaa is a member organization and consensus is that a majority doesn’t want private schools in the ihsaa, why can’t they get voted out?

A few internet posters and a small sampling of anonymous coaches is not a majority. The fans seem to care a lot more about this than coaches or players.

Purdue did a study several years ago and found there were more concussions from the repeated bashing of helmets from lineman than the big hits on runners and receivers. They latter group just gets more attention. Those players though also can get the repeated minor hits that could result in a concussion. I've always assumed those were the types of concussions the Guardian Caps were supposed to help prevent. The big hits to the head will happen no matter what you are wearing.

My son played tennis and they would have open courts throughout the summer but followed the same moratorium weeks. I've also known swimmers who did club swimming over the summer, but the high school coach couldn't be involved in any practices or meets during the moratorium weeks.

On 7/15/2023 at 3:23 PM, salemalumpres said:

Is the IHSAA still needing officials?  I went to their website and started to fill out the application and it said someone would get ahold of me?  I have yet to be contacted by anyone.  Am i doing something wrong?  

Did you complete the application? Did you receive your rule books and access the rules test? These are important steps to complete in the process. As Bob mentioned, we can help connect you with local officials that can help you get on the field for scrimmages this summer and with assigners for youth, middle school and sub-varsity games for the Fall.