JustRules

2 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

An extra player on defense on a short field is a huge advantage.

In many cases yes, but after watching these plays I'm not sure they had much impact in this case. That doesn't absolve the officials at all, but it make the pain a little less. The second down play a back dropped a wide open TD pass. Third play looks like a miscommunication between receiver and passer on a single coverage route as the pass dropped in an area with no receiver. This is a good crew that made a major mistake at a key point in a game. Do this long enough and it will happen to you. They are young, and I expect they'll be a crew that advances deep into the tournament in the future.

This back judge probably never misses a count again. You need to count every play especially coming out of a time out. The first two plays were coming out of time outs. 

7 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

*-Rule does not apply at Michigan Stadium (and Bill Lynch will launch a wad of gum 40 yards in protest). 

To be fair NCAA rules are different. And could have changed since Bill Lynch coached at Michigan stadium. The current NCAA rule difference from NFHS is if both players are airborne when they have simultaneous possession the one who touches the ground first is awarded possession (assuming possession is maintained). But also by philosophy it's very rare to have simultaneous catch. Generally one of them has it. Let it play out and one will usually come away with the ball fairly quickly. If not then you can apply the simultaneous catch rule. I haven't heard that consistently in NFHS so I wouldn't expect all crews to apply it.

To answer the original question I agree with Bobref. Each official has a different angle and shares what they saw. If they can determine one of them maybe didn't see an aspect other(s) are confident in they may decide as a group to go with one call over another.

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Not sure if that is a blatant hold but I've seen far less get called. Probably a legitimate argument to be had there if you're Center Grove. 

Would love to see the end zone view of that. This could very likely be a push by the RT that causes the LB to lose his balance as he tries to get around the edge and dive at the QB. I've seen plays like this several times that are clearly no fouls form the end zone view which is the view the covering official (referee) would have on this play.

From this angle it does look like it could be a take down from behind. Especially to a Center Grove fan is 100% biased about the action. That's the strange thing about being an official. You don't care if he gets the sack or they get the first down. You just want to get the call right. It's amazing how that changes your perspective on EVERY play. If this was a whiff like Bob speculated then you would feel awful as an official taking away a huge 4th down conversion.

23 hours ago, Esso Ayche said:

Ahh, so big difference to the NFL there. What does NCAA say?

Not necessarily. Are you referring to this play by the Packers in 2016? I believe this play resulted in an NFL rule changes. I scanned through the NFL rule book but didn't see anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't there somewhere. The NFHS rule was changed about the same time. This would still result in a free kick out of bounds foul against the kicking team in NCAA.

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I believe at The RCA Dome and LOS, they use standard NFHS goalposts and hash marks. 

Hash marks yes, I'm not sure if they expand the uprights for the state finals. I doubt they have a separate set for them installed. But some uprights have the ability to be expanded.

I would really hope an official would never say the quality of their officiating will vary depending on how much they are paid. There is some truth to the fact you may get better officials if you pay more because the better officials can often be more choosy. But even that wouldn't be a guaranteed factor. But I'm going to give the same effort if I'm working a youth game for $40 as I would a college varsity game for $300. But if I have a choice between those two games I'm probably going to work the $300 game. If you are a middle school that only pays $40 and the schools around you pay $60, you'll probably get lesser quality officials.

I think every official you talk to will say there is a wide variety of quality in officials from high school and below. The lower you go the more likely you are to find lesser quality officials. I will say there are a lot of very good officials who continue to work youth games too. With 900ish licensed officials plus whatever number we have unlicensed working youth and middle school games there is no way to make sure all of them are trained and understand the rules and do a good job. Compare that to all of D1 across the country. Most conferences have 6-8 crews of 8 officials. That means the P5 and G5 conferences probably have a combined 600 officials. And they have 10 supervisors that oversee their work and they all have staffs and position coaches that review their games and provide feedback and grades. And you go through a lot of evaluation and vetting to even get to that level.

Kudos to everyone who puts in the effort every week to be the best they can be. Some don't put that effort and some that do don't have the personality or skills to be great. But they are at least willing to try.

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

One last thing: Is it ok to have 12 guys on defense when it's a BLOWOUT, and all you are thinking about is....Where are we going after the game?  Asking for a friend.  

With a running clock if you flag it the clock will keep running. Talk about it as a crew. Then go to the offensive team and him twice if he wants to accept or decline He'll likely accept so you then you need to enforce it. Your radios are dead so you have to go old school and communicate verbally about the enforcement. If you are inefficient enough you may be able to use up 2-3 minutes of the running clock. Not that I would advocate for that, but with a running clock don't worry about passing on fouls like that. It won't delay the inevitable end of the game.

HS uprights - 23 feet 4 inches
NCAA uprights - 18 feet 6 inches
NFL uprights - 18 feet 6 inches

It's common for NFL uprights to be much higher than NFHS or NCAA which makes them look narrower.

13 hours ago, Stoner said:

There was a sectional game some years back where the defense had a pick six in overtime, and the officials screwed it up, and allowed it to stand for the win. 

Sadly that's entirely possible.

3 hours ago, Warren Central Warrior said:

Warren Central lost 35-14 to Lawrence North. Turnovers once again proved to be the outcome. The Warriors now can no longer have a winning regular season record. WC finishes the MIC at 2-3. I have no words right now 

The MIC is still good even without Carmel aand Center Grove. Every week is a battle even against game NC and Pike. They are likely to win their sectional and have another shot at CG in the Regional Final. Still a lot of talent at WC.

5 hours ago, tango said:

Is that a forward pass or lateral? Would it matter either way in HS? 

And there is no such thing in the football rule book as a lateral. It's either a forward pass or backward pass. I know what you mean but lateral means same/sideways and not backward. It's coach/announcer speak and can be like nails on a chalkboard to officials.

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

As a Referee, field goal attempts were the scariest things for me, for all those reasons. Plus, I knew if there was a block, I was responsible for the kicker’s goal line. Only thing scarier was an interception runback.

Good thing you weren't an umpire. You have that every play and twice on punts or any COP. You have to be tough and resilient in the hole.

On 9/23/2022 at 4:21 PM, Bobref said:

If the Victory Formation criteria are met, then the people who make the rules have weighed the effect on the competitive situation of taking away whatever minuscule chance the defense has by firing out in an attempt to disrupt and recover the snap, against the reduction in unnecessary contact and unsportsmanlike like acts resulting from a prohibition against forcible contact at the snap, and decided in favor of the latter.

Please translate. 8 points or less are you saying the rules committee says be ready to play on both sides? That's my preference. OL - be ready to block, DL - don't be stupid. Had a game a couple years ago where the QB muffed the snap and the defense came out with it, but we thought we saw the QB take the snap and knee it. The game ended on the next kneel. When we got the film we clearly saw the snap had been muffed and recovered by the defense near midfield in a 1-point game with 30 seconds left. I don't like telling the defense they can't do anything. If we are going to tell the teams to not do anything then we should just end the game.

Great list Bob. I agree on all points!

On 9/20/2022 at 2:02 PM, cloudofdust said:

 

I remember reading about this.

If it lands on the 3 yard line and nobody touches it what happens?

If treated the same as a punt would it be declared dead and spotted on the 3? If it goes out of bounds at the 5 is that where the ball is spotted? 

Aside from the higher possibility of a kick being blocked if the snap is at normal 7 yards (although that distance can be extended if desired) and the lower trajectory as well as being a little harder to cover what other disadvantages are there?

Seems like the place kick could be more accurately kicked if you have a good kicker. Could be a good weapon if used correctly. 

The coaches I've talked to have said this is a big risk for long field goals. Plus you have a snap to someone mostly immobile on the ground so harder to respond to a poor snap. Plus you add in the complexity of getting the ball placed properly. The risks outweigh the potential benefits in many cases. But it's an entirely possible option that could have positive outcomes if the FG is not successful.

I'll add the "approximately parallel" portion as well. Sometimes you have a tackle or maybe wideout who is angled in or out especially on a trick play.

On 9/3/2022 at 7:01 PM, crimsonace1 said:

A scenario from Friday's IU-Illinois game (which I was able to see despite an hour's drive from my game thanks to college games lasting 4+ hours). 

Final drive. IU is in hurry-up offense. Apparently it subbed, so Illinois - the defense - uses the opportunity to replace about eight players. IU snaps the ball while the ILL players are running off the field. Ball is snapped, incomplete pass results, flag thrown for illegal substitution. 

After a long discussion, flag is picked up, clock is reset to the time of the previous snap and essentially, the previous play was voided. Because IU had subbed a player, I believe that's the proper application of the rule (although the announcers were baffled - I caught the first part of the play on radio and then saw the aftermath on TV). 

It got me to thinking what the high school rule is in such a situation. If the offense makes a pre-snap substitution, does it have to give the defense the opportunity to change its personnel before the snap? If the ball is snapped (I know one official - the R or U - will often hold the play until the defense's chance to sub happens in the college level) before that happens, would it be adjudicated in the same way (no play, reset time and ball to previous spot)? 

I tried to go back and find the play by play in a box score but haven't found one yet. I know the announced said they voided the play, but the R's announcement was not heard on the broadcast. I thought the ball was snapped at the succeeding spot with no clock adjustment. They treated it as if the penalty for illegal substitution was declined. The replays I saw I didn't see an IU player sub so I assumed the Center Judge reacted to seeing the defense subbing and assumed the offense had subbed. The R pushed him back because there was no substitution. If that was true the mistake was attempting to prevent IU from snapping the ball. A friend said IU did sub one player so the Center Judge was right to hold up the play but he should have stayed until Illinois completed their sub. Illinois was being slow in their sub and if IU didn't like being held up they shouldn't have subbed. If the latter is what happened it's possible the flagged was picked up (would have been declined anyway) and they went with the result of the play. It's also possible it happened as you said it with going back to the previous spot and previous clock, but that's now how I remember it at the time. Regardless the officials made a mistake on how they handled the play. It was a crazy situation.

On 9/3/2022 at 9:20 PM, Irishman said:

yep...definitely is a call. That said, in the pregame meeting between the head coach and officials, possible trick plays should be part of the conversation in that meeting. It is the responsibility of the head coach to mention that play, and it would have been at that point the officials could have provided some insight on the deception. Is every official going to make that call? I would guess no. 

Agree and good suggestion on this being brought up in the pre-game meeting. If he's got his arms up approaching the sideline he's giving the indication there is a problem and the snap is not imminent. That's where they got in trouble. If the QB was just moving sideways without indicating a problem then this can be done. Kudos to this crew for understanding the rule and getting it right.

The rule book talks about deception and says there are ways to legally deceive. But non-football acts like this are not allowed.

On 9/3/2022 at 5:52 PM, Patriot74 said:

Thank you for the incite.  I thought the play should stand because no flags were thrown. There was no real good explanation for what transpired.  Thank you again. 

The R probably could have dropped a flag after the discussion and then signaled the foul but would that have made you feel any better about it. I wonder what information the wing and R had that mad them realize they missed it. The rule currently states you need to have no more than 4 in the backfield. It doesn't say you have to have 7 on the line. It could be a foul for illegal number (same signal as illegal formation) if you have 10 players in the game with 6 on the line and 4 of them in ineligible numbers. This could be easily missed but if you didn't catch it before the snap I'm not sure how you realize you missed it when the team is lined up for a try. If there were 11 players with 6 on the line and 5 in the backfield, hopefully the other wing got involved in the conversation and they discussed what they had for backs and realized they did have 5. If they were right I agree with Bob. Better to look ugly and get it right than be ugly and get it wrong.

10 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Week two goals:

Avoid Week three’s training video. 

They pick good plays as well! Your goal should be to provide an example of GREAT mechanics!

You see that play occasionally. You only see video of the ones that work. I imagine it fails much more often. Would love to see a blooper version of this play.

4 hours ago, Bobref said:

I spoke to the IHSAA observer on this game. Apparently, they had issues with the clock operators all night. On that particular instance, the play clock operator had erroneously set the play clock to 25 sec. instead of 40. The crew didn’t catch it until after the play clock went to zero. So, they picked up the delay flag, but felt they had to reset the play clock to the correct interval. Not an optimal outcome, but the best one they could come up with under the circumstances.

I would have also considered resetting the game clock to what it would have been with 25 seconds left. The mistake of the clock operator and the crew to recognize it ealier cost the defense an additional 10 seconds of game clock time. That's better than 25 seconds but still a significant difference late in a half. In many states the clock operators and chain crew are part of the crew and provided by new or retired officials. We should all consider ourselves part of the same team.

20 hours ago, FBO said:

Man, I don't know.  We desperately need more officials.  With inflation (gas prices) and dealing with fans that get worse every year, it's a hard problem to fix.  I will say this though, I have seen an improvement in coaches over the last 2 years and how they treat officials.  They understand the issue.

They have their own shortage issues so they get it. They still get heated during games because it's emotional and they put so much into it. We put time into it, but we our livelihood is not based on the actions or decisions of 16-17 year olds. One thing we can do better as officials is communication with coaches. Anticipate what they may want before they want it. For example, at the start of a series late in the half, let your coach know you will look to him after every play in case he wants to call a time out.

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I think there was a bit more than just that. He was ejected. That said, did he get an unsportsmanlike penalty earlier in the game? If it's the gesture itself, I would agree it was not much of one, but it does look like there is an exchange with the defender standing close by. There had to be something said because the official who threw the flag did not seem to be in a very good spot to really see the kid point. 

I believe he had the UNS on the spike as well. Two UNS is an automatic ejection. He's out next week as well. Hopefully a good lesson learned for him. He looks like a great player.