MonkeyButt

4 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

well if team X beat team Y on a given night, but a couple of weeks later team Z beats team X.....but then team Y beats team Z this week, but team P has an easier strength of schedule, and team P beat an opponent of Team Y, therefore...........

Exactly what I am saying. Pretty simple! LOL

I will say that in the end Roncalli and New Pal may be the best two teams in the state, but we will never know. 

10 minutes ago, temptation said:

Zero quality in state wins and double digit losses to the only quality teams on their schedule.  The King win was fool’s gold.

I just can’t.

Not counting King, who isn't as good as people say they are, WC hasn't beat a team that has actually beat a team. NC and Pike have not won any games. Up until last night LN was in the same boat. LN beat Warren who is LN's first win against a team that actually has a win. So WC doesn't deserve to be in the top 25 anymore. It pains me to say that. I don't know what is going on over there. Those kids are much better than their record and performance. I have my theory though. But I will keep that to myself.

So since in a power ranking I don't do head to head strength of schedules (doesn't make sense to do so) but rather head to head match ups and related games here is what I see so far. If you want to argue class schedules against each other then I guess there is nothing to discuss.

HSE 26 Westfield 21 - New Pal 42 Westfield 28 - New Pall should be ranked above HSE

Louisville Trinity beats CG 29-28 2OT and Carmel 17-7

Louisville Male 23 Louisville Trinity 21

Roncalli 28 Louisville Male 7 - Roncalli should rank above CG, and yes at this point probably New Pal as well, especially if they beat Cincinnati Elder next week who beat St Xaxier (KY) who also beat Trinity. 
 

I know it is "7 degrees of separation" argument but Roncalli handle a good Male team (though it was close into the 4th quarter) that beat a good Trinity team that beat both CG and Carmel. Question is could Roncalli beat CG and Carmel. I think so. There is an argument there to put them ahead of CG, especially since Roncalli is undefeated.

4 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

New Palestine at Shelbyville (NewPalRadio.com): The Dragons are playing like a state championship contender. Shelbyville is a developing program that's still trying to instill a culture and build. New Palestine is obviously a heavy favorite here, so look for the game within the game. NP has shut out Shelbyville three consecutive years - can they make it a fourth? 

Yorktown at Greenfield-Central (WRGF-89.7): Probably the most intriguing game of the week. G-C was banged-up last week against New Palestine and played without several key players. Yorktown is 5-1 and played New Palestine to a one-score game at halftime in its lone loss. Mason Moulton has the Tigers' offense rolling. 

New Castle at Mt. Vernon (WLTI-1550, IndianaSRN): The Trojans' air raid is still coming into form but their defense has been solid this season, holding Delta to 12 points in their first HHC win of the year last week. MV appears to have gotten back on track after the New Palestine loss in Week 4, beating Pendleton Heights 46-14 last week. 

Pendleton Heights at Delta (WEEM-91.7): This will be a bounce-back game for one team. The Arabians are coming off back-to-back losses to New Palestine and Mt. Vernon. The Eagles have dropped three straight to Mt. Vernon, Yorktown and New Castle. 

I am interested to see how Yorktown finishes the conference. I think they are as good as either of GC or MV. But then again I am new to the conference. I am looking forward to hearing the results of their game tomorrow.

18 hours ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

This really shows a lot of ignorance.  Anyone in the top 7 of 6A could win this year.  Roncalli wont win 4A in my opinion, let alone be top 5 in the state.  Carmel has not played like a top 5 team yet this season though they’re not far off.  Finally, HSE is undefeated and BD lost to CG by 1, yet they don’t matter.  Both might very well be in the State Finals.

Is HSE in the north part of the tournament?

4 minutes ago, MonkeyButt said:

It definitely isn't perfect and I won't argue you there. And I don't work for any one at that paper. Chalk it up to someone who doesn't pay much attention to football in the north as much as he does in the central indiana. But I here Penn is looking better this year than years past.

 

*hear

1 minute ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

You must work for the South Bend Tribune? Penn beats Elkhart (In Elkhart) ,  yet you and the SBT have Elkhart ranked in front of Penn . I'll take Penn by 10 if the game is at Penn . 

It definitely isn't perfect and I won't argue you there. And I don't work for any one at that paper. Chalk it up to someone who doesn't pay much attention to football in the north as much as he does in the central indiana. But I here Penn is looking better this year than years past.

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Ah, so basically the same poll that I had with a few teams jumbled by 2-3 spots?  Got it.

Um yeah! Do I have to add teams that aren't in the rankings at all? I only really argued one aspect of your rankings. So here ya go. Were you expecting me to put New Pal first and take the others off the top 25? LOL

As a New Pal fan I am very interested in seeing how Roncalli does. Since it seems they have a run heavy offense will the passing game be able to step up. I am an Indy homer so I hope Roncalli can pull all these games out. However, if not I pray they keep it close and stay healthy. I look forward to a great regional game against Roncalli come November. 

14 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

I think you're pretty spot on in the Ben Davis/Carmel game. History would favor the Giants because this series is tied again for the 8th time since 1996 and Carmel has not led the series since 1995. The Giants always seem to win the "series tied" matchups.

The only game I see different is the Warren/LN game. Lawrence North's a good football team. Not sure why they didn't put it together exactly. They really fought back twice from a couple of BD haymakers. I think that game with Warren is a one score affair. Warren wins though, 28-24

I do think that is a high possibility. Especially the last couple of years LN has played Warren really tough even if they didn't have the players. Minus that sectional game a couple of years back when they sacked the QB 8 times and Omar Cooper didn't catch a single pass. The defense was on fire that game. But it is at Warren so I think it will be more like 28-21, and Warren will be in control the entire game and LN will be playing catch up.

Okay I have been challenged to do a ranking. My disclaimer is I know very little about 3A on down so oh well:

1. Brownsburg
2. Center Grove
3. Ben Davis
4. New Palestine
5. Cathedral
6.  Carmel
7. Roncalli 
8. Hamilton Southeastern
9. Lawrence Central
10. Fishers
11. Warren Central
12. Westfield 
13. Carroll (Fort Wayne)
14. Fort Wayne Snider
15. Bishop Chatard
16. Gibson Southern
17. Crown Point
18. Merrillville
19. Elkhart
20. Penn
21. East Central
22. Zionsville
23. Fort Wayne North
24. Mishawaka
25. West Lafayette 

33 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

Well played.  Was CaptainHook and Monkey Butt the fish that were truly hooked?

I appreciate you putting the poll out there for debate.  If Monkey were willing he could just copy and move teams around to fit his opinion.

New Pal is good, I have seen them and they are solid.  They will have to get through Roncalli and who knows to get that blue ring.  If they dominate 4A, they can then lay their claim to being the king of all classes.  Personally, Westfield is down from the past two years, so comparing to them is not a good comparison.  I would say they are better now than they were in Game 1 with all of their new starters at the skill positions.

I could just copy and paste and do that just to really fire up some people. Maybe I will and just take it on the chin. And I hope everyone,  barring injuries, is better than their game 1 performance. I am merely comparing Westfield on a one on one, game to game basis. But again what is the fun of these polls if not to argue about them. 

52 minutes ago, temptation said:

Already told you.  New Pal and Roncalli don't have to justify their ranking to anyone based on the athletes they trot out there on Friday nights.  247 does the work for me as both teams have an abundance (probably not the right word) of next level talent which is on par with/better than some of the 5A/6A schools I have them ranked ahead of.

Just busting your balls a bit.  Please don't be "I am going to nit pick and criticize the guy willing to put his rankings out there but run and hide when I am asked to post my own" guy.

Thanks for reading though.  I love the debate.  It's what makes it fun.

Oh I am fully willing to admit you are braver than I in coming up with rankings. Like I said if I knew a little bit more, and I am trying to learn, about the lower classes than I might try my hand at creating a poll. But right now it would be largely on speculation at best and what colors I like best. LOL 

18 hours ago, temptation said:

Sagarin, where Warren Central is 5 spots higher than a team (Lawrence Central) that beat them by double figures...just one example.

(I actually like Jeff's rankings too but let's not sit here and pretend they are flawless.)

I also know that his rankings aren't perfect, but they are more realistic. In the end I guess we will all see where each of the top 10 fall. Unfortunately for New Pal the rest of their regular season is the lower half of the conference. New Pal won't be tested again till the playoffs. Regardless of anyone's polling which is always fun to argue, all that matters is how far they go in the playoffs number 1 ranking or not. I do like your top 5 though other than the New Pal not being in it.

18 hours ago, temptation said:

He only likes boring class rankings with little controversy where his favorite team is #1.

LOL I love the controversy or else I wouldn't have criticized your poll or your logic. I don't have enough knowledge of lower classes to even begin to rank them. That is my reason. And my favorite team is #1 in their class because they deserve to be there which it is reflected in every class poll. I don't know that they should be number one in a power ranking, but I can argue it. However, I can't argue your logic because I know my team will never play those teams for you to see they are better or not. So that is a non-starter if that is where you are starting at. Not my problem. It is a flaw in your polling. How do you change that? And how do you justify having Roncalli and New Pal in the top 10 ahead of other 6A teams if they haven't play those teams or their schedule who according to you have tougher schedules. You are the one that made the poll and have to defend it when questioned on it not me.

Good thoughts and predictions. I look forward to upsets every week, but I think you got pretty accurate here.

45 minutes ago, Warren Central Warrior said:

True facts 

I wasn't going to remind you about you being down on WC, because I was too! LOL But fans have every right to be down about their teams when their teams are struggling and the reasons as to why are hard to understand. I love WC and hope for them to make it all the way to state. It is largely because of the kids on the team. I have no love for the coaching staff minus a few coaches. But that doesn't mean I want the coaches to fail. I want them to succeed for the boys on that team who deserve to be doing better and set up for success. I pray this win over Pike gives WC the focus they need and not a false sense that they have arrived. They need to stay grounded and focused on each opponent each week. They have the talent to win it all. They are just as talented as any 6A team in the state.

11 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

Why not put out your own Top 25?  Let's see what you think.

LOL I'd rather critique Temptation's. More fun that way. No but seriously I would if I had more knowledge of the classes below 4A. I really don't. I am most familiar with 6A and have learned a lot about 4A more recently. I also wouldn't do a power ranking between all classes. It is too subjective in my opinion. I think Sagarin does a great job though some of it is debatable, but there has to be a formula for multi-class power rankings and Sagarin's is the best I have seen so far. 

8 minutes ago, temptation said:

It did.  Did you know where I had New Pal ranked preseason?

You can’t diminish HSE’s win over a Westfield team that is 3-3, yet then cite New Pal’s win over them as a major accomplishment in your next breath.

It isn't diminishing. The game itself New Pal was dominant the entire game. HSE was not. It is head to head. I do not know where you had NP preseason, but I do know NP was not even ranked in several polls and ranked in the teens on others. So in a power ranking is it required for lower class teams to play 6A teams in order to be found in the top of the list? There are several metrics that are involved in power rankings. Strength of schedule is only a part of it. If you actually don't know what the Sagarin Ratings are then I defer you to this website: http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm. I do believe you are messing with me though because I misspelled his name. Regardless, despite New Pal being 4A he has NP #2 over HSE.

If by your logic a 6A schedule will always be stronger than a 5A or below schedule then you should never have a 4A team in the top 10. How do you justify even having New Pal or Roncalli in your top 10? How could a 4A team without playing a 6A schedule be ranked above a 6A team without a head to head match up? This is why I don't rank different classes together. It is always bias to the highest class. This isn't like ranking D1 FBS. In order to make the similar comparison you would have to rank D1 down to NAIA together.

2 hours ago, temptation said:

Wish New Pal had another challenging game on the schedule.  Loved their series with CG.

Admittedly, I don’t see them moving up in this poll unless someone in front of them implodes.  Just no one left on the schedule that’s a legitimate litmus test.

Will be interesting to see if teams like Roncalli, Reitz or East Central can remain competitive in a potential tournament contest.

That is the problem with power rankings. Lower classes that compete against ranked teams in classes above them should account for a higher quality win than a general game between two 6A class teams. That is why I am not a fan of power rankings between different classes. But it does make for fun conversation. 🙂

1 hour ago, temptation said:

1.  I don’t know what Sangrin is?  Is that wine?  

2.  Once again, looking at record is short sighted.  LC, Fishers and Westfield are top 10 teams in 6A and HSE beat them.  They then crushed Zionsville who was playing its best football and is undoubtedly a 5A state contender.

3.  New Pal has quietly taken care of business and deserves their spot.  They beat Westfield and what has now been shown to be overrated outfits from Decatur Central and Mount Vernon.  Their SOS is inflated based on what the computers “thought” those two teams would be in the preseason.  The Dragons could play with anyone in Indiana which is one hell of an accomplishment for a 4A school.

 

Just making my argument. Like I said I agree with the statement 1-7 could be shuffled around at this point. 

On 9/23/2022 at 9:51 PM, Warren Central Warrior said:

Well, a lot of you guys were wrong tonight. Warren Central wins 49-14 over Pike. The Warriors improve to 3-3, 2-2 in the MIC with one conference game left.

I am happy to say I was wrong. I hoped for the best and expected the worse. Now WC has still got a lot to work on, such as disciplined football game in and game out. I just don't want them to let up on the gas. They gotta keep this momentum going into the playoffs.

32 minutes ago, temptation said:

Yeah, thought someone might point that one out.

Follow my logic here…

Ben Davis had a let down after a big win over rival Warren and let a mediocre LN team hang around.

Cathedral had a week off before beating up on a middle school, even though they had little choice.

Meanwhile, HSE has played a meat grinder of a schedule thus far and passed all tests.  3-0 against teams in my top 11 and crushed a Zionsville unit that was feeling good about itself.

As someone pointed out a couple of weeks back however I think one could toss teams 1-7 into a blender and make a case for any one of them to beat the other on any given night.

Haven’t been able to say that since inception of 6A.

LC 3-3

NC 0-6

Avon 0-6

Fishers 4-2

Westfield 3-3

Zionsville 4-2

HSE's opponents are 14-22. Only 2 of the are above .500. Meat grinder? Not so sure about that. If you are going by strength of schedule that can only account for a portion of your formula for your ranking. Sangrin has New Pal 2nd and HSE 4th even though HSE has a higher strength of schedule. Problem about it having a high strength of schedule is that typically all Indy 6A schedules will be stronger than the lower classes. Head to head though New Pal's win over Westfield is better quality. Just saying New Pal should be higher than HSE at the very least.

I agree with this statement though, "As someone pointed out a couple of weeks back however I think one could toss teams 1-7 into a blender and make a case for any one of them to beat the other on any given night."

Okay just saying:
HSE 26 Westfield 21

New Palestine 42 Westfield 28

42 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Mike has a philosophy in interviews. When the team wins, it's credit to the team. When the team loses, it's always on the coaches. "________________________________, and that's on me."

The blank would be whatever went wrong.

It is typical coach speak. I get that. But Coach Kirschner has never been at a loss on what the problem is.