23andCounting

Unfortunate, but true. God love the high school game......................for now.

That's one hell of a long term rivalry to just let go of. Notre Dame dropping Michigan is chump change compared to USC dropping the Irish.

Doerffler's a good coach, and good coaching is in the blood. His uncle had North Side state ranked in the largest division in the 80's. His father was the first to turn Concordia into a contender. Leo is in good hands.

You don't think one can be passionate and running a dumpster fire at the same time?

I'd argue that they've vied for that 3 or 4 spot during their down trend. Would I be surprised if they finished first? Not really. They're just a few years removed from being the best team in the SAC...........2019 & 2020. I think it would be a mistake to count them out. Let's not leave the Spartans for dead like people around the state were doing to Snider in 2020.

Very good point, however, some programs have lost student enrollment. Still a good point nonetheless.

Leo takes on Chatard in 2026 and Homestead in 2027. Great moves for the program. Slowly making a name for themselves in NE Indiana and working their way up as one of the better programs. As much as I like the Homestead game, I'm wondering if the Spartans are ditching Indy for a more winnable game. Great move if their goal is to win the SAC title. Not so much if they're trying to win state. I do think the Spartans might be on an uptick this season.

It would be insane to not give an edge to today's teams. But I think their are some exceptions for ,some of the better coached teams of the 80's and 90's. What I'm hearing you say: A clone of Jeff George and Vaughn Dunbar in 2025 is better than their counterpart four decades ago. I would agree with that, advanced training supports that conclusion. However, those two guys back then are better than 99.9% of their present day competitors. Remember, kids back then still lifted weights, had good coaching, and ran track, so it's not as if they didn't have any training. So there are some exceptions. I still think Gessman's teams would give Moore's teams a run for their money. That guy had five state titles.

Agree. By and large, there's truth to teams being better now versus then. Coaches have better training, players have better training, and now more than ever, many schools are sporting strength and conditioning coaches who are specific to that field. But...............................there were some programs that were head and shoulders better than the rest during their era that put some well coached, hard nosed teams on the gridiron. Some of those old Carmel, WC, BD, Penn, Snider, Bloomington South, and Dwenger teams would compete just fine against programs of today.

Agree, it's hard not to lean toward today's teams based on advanced training alone. But there were some really good teams back in the 80's and 90's. If Snider's '86 Vaughn Dunbar team wasn't the program's best of all time (with their starting quarterback), they were certainly Top 3 or 4 in my opinion. That's just one example from my neck of the woods.

I'd stack Geesman's teams up with Moore's. The run that Wright had at Warren Central would be hard to beat though.

Every state championship team deserves to pump their chest and tout "we're the best of all time." If they don't, there's a problem. There just isn't a realistic way to measure the great Penn teams of the past to the Center Grove's of today or anyone else in between. One could say kids today are better trained and more developed, but not sure I'm buying it. That Penn team wasted the south by three touchdowns, so for them not to be ranked validates everything I've posted regarding Sagarin.

More specifically, were they public school kids to begin with?

I would advocate for any Warren team during that dynasty. The Snider team that lost to Warren in 2004 would have beaten the majority of 6A champions in my opinion. Even with Quale Lewis out with a broken ankle, that Snider team was pretty good. Just ask Penn. So yeah, kudos to all those Warren teams.

Harding was a small version of Warren Central during that time period. The only difference was school size and coaching. Not saying the coaching at Harding wasn't good, because it was. But there are some coaching staffs in Indiana who could have won state every year with the kind of talent Harding had.

I do not. I appreciate that we have a guy like Sagarin who does this for Indiana high schools. It's a good system, a fun system to look at. Obviously it has it's flaws, which is why I made the "90% at the end of the season" comment. Overall I think it does a pretty good job. But to think you can compare teams from year to year is ludicrous in my opinion.

But what does "near entire freshmen team" entail? If true, this team's chances of winning 5A or 6A in 2028 just got flushed down the toilet.

Are that many parents really going to change their mind by letting their kids go from private to public? Not sure I'm buying this rumor. I guess "entire freshmen team" could mean 4 or 5 good players.

You've got to take Sagarin with a grain of salt. I think it's a better measure in college and pro. All bets are off in high school. At the end of the day, they'll be remembered as a state champion, and that's all that matters. It's just not possible for a flawed system like Sagarin to accurately predict the best teams of all time. Good Lord, where do I begin to unpack all this. Some will argue that Sagarin is pretty accurate toward the end of the season, and quite frankly, I think he does a solid job, but probably only about 90% accurate. But to predict teams from year to year? C'mon. This whole thing is nonsense.

Sounds to me like that senior might not want to ditch his program right before the season starts. I'm okay with that.

Snider's 400 relay 2004, not surprised. A healthy Quale Lewis puts that Snider team in the Top 20 all time.

C'mon, it's fun for pretend. Hard to take seriously though. So many flaws with Sagarin to put any stock in this.

For the first time since 2019, Carmel could be a factor in a northern sectional. That was my point.

I thought Carmel bounced around from north to south on occasion. Either way, it feels different now with Wright at the helm.

An exciting opportunity to showcase themselves against one of the state's best. But I'd say they're kind of screwed.