scarab527

8 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

You're right.

Believe it or not, I think I can understand where the opposing view is coming from - just don't agree with it.  Fortunately, we can agree to disagree.

Trust me, I agree with you about participation trophies. I just don’t think those considerations apply in this situation.

4 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

Sorry, that's how I feel and ain't no one changing my mind.

Lol that’s all you needed to say. 

5 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Because if you're 1-8 or in hoops 5-15 what have you done to earn a playoff spot?

No kid on a 1-8 team believes they have ‘earned’ a playoff spot. But if that 1-8 team wins a sectional, however unlikely that may be, they earned that trophy. 

10 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

"All in" = Everyone gets a trophy mentality.

Playoffs are a privilege, not a right IMHO.

How is it an “everyone gets a trophy mentality” when every player knows they have to win 2-3 games to get a trophy?

24 minutes ago, DT said:

To be perfectly honest, there is a huge lack of toughness and grit in the area.  Its been slowly drained away as the factory manufacturing base of the Region has disappeared.  And its not coming back.  Blue collar toughness has been replaced by white collar softness in almost every community in NWI.  

I mean, Valpo is white-collar, and they’re one of the best programs in the region. Andrean has many white-collar families as well. White collar demographics don’t seem to hurt Carmel or Westfield either. “Softness” isn’t exclusive to either white collar or blue collar people.  

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Those CP teams beat out some very weak DAC competition and had no chance of advancing beyond the regional.  There was not a D1 player to be found on any one of those teams.  And Merrillville has a tendancy to choke when the spotlight is on bright, similar to little bro Hobart

I mean the DAC was down in those years, but CP still beat Merrillville all three times in the playoffs. They lost to Penn in the regional in 2016 + 2017 and Valpo in 2018, all very good teams at the time. They lost by 1 to a Merrillville team that won the regional by 2 touchdowns in 2019. Either way, winning 3 6A sectionals in a row and nearly a 4th is nothing to sneeze at. And I think you’re being too hard on Merrillville and Hobart. 

1 minute ago, DT said:

I disagree   Your two biggest high schools (Lake Central and Crown Point) are on par with the Indy megas.  They both have bad football programs.  There is more to it

Crown Point won 3 straight sectionals from 2016-2018, and nearly beat Merrillville to make it 4 in a row last year. They had a rebuilding year this year, but I would hardly say they’re a bad program. LC has many issues that we’ve discussed previously. While I agree there’s more to it than pure population, I think it’s hard to doubt that the population explosion the Indy area has experience the last 20 years has factored into that area distancing itself from the Region in terms of sports success. 

15 minutes ago, DT said:

Here is my final thought on the topic.  And its a controversial one, but one that needs to be said.

The NCC needs more black athletes.

More D1 talent has come out of Hammond, Gary and East Chicago than the rest of The Region combined over the past 50 years.  Merrillville is what it is because of its exteme proximity to Gary talent.  

The NCC can become a hotbed of talent by integrating these schools into the conference.  Take a look at the Elkhart roster.  Its very mixed and loaded with talent.  The Region can do the same.  Frankly, the addition of Hammond, Gary and EC to the NCC will draw the conference very close to The DAC.  It will take some time, but the building blocks will be in place.

We are talking about a Ten Year Plan to close the gap on Indy superiority.  I cant think of a better way to improve the overall competitive environment in the conference and raise the talent bar then by bringing in these 4 schools.  All would be required to met strict entrance requirements.  Some will receive waivers (swimmimng/gymnastics, etc)  

Here is my Lake Ten

Highland

Minster

Hobart

Lowell

Andrean

KV

Morton

H Central

ECC

West Side

 

While I think this proposal could help raise the level of competition within the NCC, I’m skeptical it would do much to close the gap with the Indy schools. To be honest, the only thing I see closing that gap is if the Region starts experiencing some population growth. I think that this actually could happen post-covid, as people could be looking to get out of Illinois. But until some sustained population growth starts happening in the Region, the skill gap between us and Indy in high school athletics will continue to grow. 

4 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

But Hanover did play Andrean in football. Twice in the last 3 years.

You need to come to Cedar Lake, my man... Its not CedarTucky anymore. 

You said Hanover cant stay on the floor with Munster. You need to come on down!

I know they did, but they took them off the schedule this year to play a team from Illinois for better competition until covid happened. And not Cedartucky anymore? Well maybe I’ll have to come give it a look after all. 

6 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

Since this started as an Elkhart thread that consolidated what are the feasibility of these consolidations?

hobart lake station river forest?

whiting ec?

calumet griffith?

can you think of any others?

River Forest nearly closed just a few years ago. If that happened, I’d imagine some kids would go to Hobart, some to Lake Station.  Can’t see any other consolidation happening in the area. 

3 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

What’s wrong with those games? It’s like Purdue playing Indiana state. Not every game needs to competitive. Sometimes you want an easy game to let everyone play in. Plus on the other side the smaller schools always want to see how they stack up vs the big dogs.

The problem is the NCC has enough of those games to begin with. 

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

scarab.

Andrean and Noll were scheduled to play in football THIS year until Covid

Andrean MUST play Noll. It is ordained.  Andrea does not want to play Hanover>? Really? 

When Noll shut down their program in 2018 and 2019, the team that filled that schedule hole was Hanover. Hanover has played Andrean twice in the last 3 years....

You have a 1995 world view of Hanover in basketball.   

24-2 last year.. Won 3A Sectional 18 easily.

You 'arent impressed' You 'stand by your statement'

But would you go to Cedar Lake to see Hanover play Munster the night of Jan. 12?  Its on the schedule./

Come on, man.

Andrean was not going to play Noll this year, regardless of covid. And I am aware Andrean played Hanover those years, and there’s a reason they took them off the schedule. As for going down to Cedartucky, well it’d take a lot more than a basketball game to get me down there. 

7 minutes ago, DT said:

I think you will see Morton and Hammond Central winning sectionals and regionals in football and basketball in the near future.  That level of competition is something the current NCC needs desperately.  Give the Hammond schools a chance to fill out their athletic menus.  They will have lots of kids and resources to work with.  

Exactly. The NCC has huge competitive balance issues in multiple sports, and without addressing these issues, I could see the conference dissolving soon.

10 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

 

You said Hanover would be doormats in a league with Munster, Andrean, KV, Hobart, Highland and Lowell.   I dont know why they are doormats to you... on them

 Hanover lost 46-44 to Portage and gained 600 yards.  That's competitive. 

And being in a conference Is not all about football.

Hanover and Lowell are sister schools, scarab. Hanover is the old Lowell school district

Hanover is Lowell's natural and geographic rival  They are a better fit with Lowell and KV than Morton is .  Andrean plays Bishop Noll. They would be OK playing Hanover.

Basketball ? Hanover beat KV twice last year in boys ball and they beat Hobart by 13

You're going to have to come into the present day with me on Hanover Central athletics

Hanover is not mediocre and they have all the sports. Morton and Hammond, as of now, do not.

That's why Hanover fits in the Northwest Crossroads Conference, which was the discussion here once we hijacked it from Elkhart talk.

Congrats to Hanover on being competitive in a loss to a terrible team. Also, Andrean hasn’t played Noll in football in about 5 years. Hanover beating mediocre basketball programs like Hobart and KV doesn’t impress me either. Andrean is coming off a state run recently and could be gearing up for another, and Munster is one of the best programs in state. If Lowell wants to play their own geographic rival, they can, with one of their non-conference slots. Hobart and Andrean do not want to have to play Hanover in football. I stand by my statement that Hanover would be mediocre in every sport in the NCC, they would not be able to compete with the top teams in each sport.

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

No scarab....for the record....

Lowell and Morton have met in the regular season every year since 2004...not counting this season...it is a regularly scheduled game. They meet twice in  many seasons. They cant play Morton any more than they already do. 

 

..and you may have a slightly out-of-date view of Hanover Central

Hanover was 24-2 in basketball last year and they beat Morton by 33

Hanover beat Munster by 33 in football and was 9-2/

I believe that Hanover has 19 IHSAA sports....no gymnastics.

Hanover has won state in softball and has been to the state finals in baseball/ they would not be doormats. Hanover is strong in tennis and they were section champs in boys basketball. Only Covid stopped them. 

 

 

Conferences are not 100% about being competitive/ Its whether you field teams in all sports. 

I think Hanover and Wheeler have more sports teams than Hammond and Morton do,. 

I stand corrected on Lowell/Morton then, but Andrean and Hobart would benefit from playing them. This move would be about much more than Lowell, I don’t know why you’re so fixated on then. And Hanover beating Munster means nothing, they were one of the worst teams in the entire state. Hanover also lost to an absolutely terrible Portage team this year. They went 9-2 playing an utterly terrible schedule. They would not be able to compete with Andrean, Hobart, or Lowell in football. I doubt they could compete with Munster or Andrean in basketball. They might not be a doormat, but they’d be mediocre at best. 

47 minutes ago, DT said:

Well if we could get Highland, Munster and the new Hamond school to play like big boys the conference would be much more interesting.

I wouldn’t hold my breath on Highland. That program hasn’t been able to get on the right direction forever it seems like. Shame to see what’s happened to Munster. 

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

Dwenger's enrollment ranks 105. That puts them in 4a.

Valpo ranks 31. That should put them in 6a.

Dwenger was 5A the last cycle and got the 2 points necessary to stay up. They will be 5A for this cycle. I saw in the enrollment thread that Valpo is projected to be in 5A for the next cycle, but that could be wrong. 

19 minutes ago, BTF said:

5A North:

In: Snider

Out: Zionsville, Dwenger, Valpo

Really? Snider vs Cathedral for the state championship. Mark it down. 

I believe both Dwenger and Valpo will still be in 5A next year. 

10 minutes ago, DT said:

I dont disagree, but times are changing.  Schools dont want to travel like they used to.  COVID has had a major impact on ADs and scheduling.  They want simplicity and certainty.  Most of the non con matchups are poor matchups anyways.  Highland has been playing Crown Point and Portage in week one on and off for the past decade and thay always lose by 4 touchdowns.  KV should be looking for bigger competition than 2A RENS.  Munster and Lake Central have both lost interest in football so that game is meaningless.  Hobart-Merrillville and CP-Lowell are good games but you have to sacrifice something to get the full round robin.  

I still feel like Andrean, Hobart, and Lowell gain enough from their non-conference games that they’d resist an attempt to go to closed, round robin format, even though it would be simpler and reduce travel. 

3 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

I find it hard to believe that posters can't stay on topic for more than a page.  This was about Elkhart football.  I guess no one wishes to talk about St. Joe Valley (South Bend-Mishawaka-Oscola-Elkhart) football.

In all fairness, most of the posters posting in this thread are Region guys. 

4 minutes ago, DT said:

I like this , but throw out the divisiona and just make it a 10 team round robin conference.  That way each school is guaranteed a full 9 game schedule every year.  

Some rivalries will be lost

Lowell - Crown Point

Munster - Lake Central

Hobart vs The DAC

KV vs Renseltucky

But the overall benefits of scheduling simplicity and playing schools of like size overcomes the rivalry losses, in my view

I like it.

Call it what it is  The Lake Ten

 

Closed conferences are boring. 

20 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Programs have multiple priorities.

Hanover is locked into the Greater South Shore Conference league schedule.

Plus Lowell plays CP, Portage, Morton and Griffith. Lowell has played CP and Griffith since the dawn of time.  Lowell plays Morton every year.....its not either/or..

To be in a conference you have to have a lot of IHSAA sports.

I believe Hanover and Wheeler , as vito said,  has more competitive sports than Hammond does.

17 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Lowell has played Morton every year for 15 years.......What are we talking about? 

The original conversation has been sidetracked by this discussion of Lowell playing Hanover, which I’ll still say could get done, Lowell doesn’t have to play Portage, and Hanover has out of conference game slots available, the GSSC is not a closed conference. Also, if I remember right, Lowell only ever plays Morton in the playoffs, which won’t happen now that Morton will be in 5A. I’m sure Lowell would rather play Morton in the regular season than Portage or Griffith. But back to the original conversation, we were talking about the entirety of the NCC and whether the Hammond schools or HC and Wheeler would be a better fit. The NCC is a mid-large school conference of 4/5A teams with P/P Andrean. Hanover and Wheeler are 3 and 2A, respectively. They would be doormats in probably every sport in the NCC. They would never contend in football. Whereas Morton would be a great addition to the conference in football, and they have good girls/boys basketball programs. What Hammond Central’s level of play in sports will be is yet to be seen, but I would find it hard to believe if they weren’t at worst as competitive as Hanover or Wheeler would be. From a size perspective, and very likely a competition perspective, adding the Hammond schools to the NCC makes much more sense than Hanover or Wheeler.

23 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Exactly.

Hanover Central would be 'standing room only' at Lowell for football.......Morton and Hammond would not be. 

If Lowell’s priority was selling tickets, they’d have already scheduled HC. I guarantee the coaches at Andrean, Hobart, and Lowell would much rather play the Hammond Schools than HC or Wheeler. 

6 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

No scarab;

Morton and Hammond bring no fans to Lowell. Less than 50

Not talking about fans, talking about competition. 

23 minutes ago, DT said:

Agree   Highland is basically South Hammond anymore.  Munster and Hammond have been good neighbors forever.  I would think the two southern schools (Lowell and KV) might be the ones blocking the expansion.  They can leave if they dont like.  The NCC can get back to 8 by adding HM. HC, ECC and GWS.  and dropping Lowell and KV.  We would save a lot of travel doing it this way.  

I’d hate to see Lowell leave the NCC, and honestly I doubt they would. I don’t see them objecting to the Hammond schools joining, especially because they’d likely increase the level of football competition. I doubt anyone would shed a tear if KV left, and them leaving would definitely cut travel. As for EC and West Side, while I think they’d bring some competition into other sports, I don’t think they’d be good enough in football for Andrean, Hobart, and Lowell to want to bring them in. I still feel like the NCC is mainly a football conference, and the conference already has enough the competitive balance issues in that sport, I don’t think it would want to exacerbate that issue. I think EC and West Side joining the GSSC would make a little more sense. Lesser competition in football, good basketball with Noll and Marquette in the conference, seems like a good fit for those two schools. 

23 minutes ago, vito said:

 

2. Conference memberships are about more than football. Morton would certainly be competitive on the gridiron.  But, they would bring very little to cross country, volleyball, track, golf, tennis, etc. Same reasons for the breakup of the LAC 20+ years ago. 

No way the Hammond schools could bring less than Highland and KV are currently bringing though, right? I’d have to think they’d be competitive in boys/girls basketball and track/cross country as well.

I’ll take the under, looks like 3 would be the realistic number of repeat champions we could see next year. Another interesting question would be a 3.5 O/U on P/P champions for next year. On that one, I think I’d have to take the over.