PDB26

For what it's worth, it looks like a panel with Gold Rush and Wild Bunch has been installed on the home sideline. Not as bad as in the end zones; nonetheless, the stadium's aesthetic has gotten gaudy over the years. There is a lot of branding out there these days.

I don't think what happened in '03––I'm assuming you mean '03 and not '06 where Penn didn't get out of the sectional––should reflect on that 2002 team at all. The 2002 team was the opposite of the team in 2003 in many ways. They were old and experienced with 19 senior starters, ten or more multi-year starters, and seniors filling out most of the 2-deep. Only a handful of underclassmen played meaningful downs that season. That team would be in a game with any team from 2000-2010. The farther out we get and the more things change with the game and training, it's hard to say how they'd stack up against more recent teams and athletes, but that team had some great athletes. It doesn't hurt that they grow them sturdy over there either!

Yeah, but what was the enrollment?

Yeah, you're right about that. Hard to get used to those sources drying up.

I can't say what is typical, but it seems like a strength coach could, and should, be obligated to teach some courses where they interact with non-athletes. I don't think it's a big ask.

I don't know, are they really any different than any other high school? Sure, these things get reported out at the next level, but there are guys whose entire livelihoods revolve around feeding this information to consumers. Maybe I'm too stuck in the past on this one, but it doesn't seem all that crazy to me.

I didn't see it that way and I don't think one has to come at the expense of another. There are certainly reasonable arguments for the value that a strength coach can provide to a school. The strength coach is going to come into contact with at least as many students as any of the best teachers in any given subject. I have to admit, there was always a part of me that thought it was at least a little crazy that BD had a strength coach and Coach Cory was running our offseason program.

Perfect distillation of the elements that make large class football in central Indiana what it is. BD got their first full-time strength coach in 1984. Penn followed suit 32 years later. All I've heard about the youth league is that they're not all running Penn's offense––which is meaningless to me. How many seniors are playing the same side of the ball, let alone the same position, that they played in elementary school? You can't overstate the importance of the schedules that BD, Carmel, CG, and WC have played since the MIC was formed. For example, since 2000, Center Grove has played BD 32 times, Carmel, 27 times, and WC 33 times. Penn has played BD, Carmel, CG, and WC a combined 22 times in that span with the majority of those games taking place between 2000 and 2010. And then it's not like the rest of the MIC 4's conference games are all laughers either. Just think about this, Center Grove went out and added Cathedral to their in 2014. Add in the fact that when Penn plays anyone of note in the state, the JVs and freshmen turn around and play an additional game against an NIC foe. They've played a particular style for 50 years more or less. They tried to modernize the offense to some degree during the Rich Rod era––I don't think the zone-based running game suits them at all––and I don't think that has led to any more potency on offense against top-flight competition. Even when Penn matches up well on defense against the best, the offense is almost always incapable of keeping them off the field and the defense ends up getting big-played out of the game.

Just something I heard the first time I heard Moore's name floated as a possibility. I have no idea if that's what they're planning to do.

Based on the Brownsburg posting on the forum for a social studies teacher with coaching opportunities, I'm guessing it's now more than a rumor that Coley Moore is joining the Penn staff. Not sure what the means for Trent, maybe they work together for a year in '24 to hand the reins over for good in '25.

For some reason, I'm almost certain, they had him on scholarship. Couldn't understand it at the time since his father's education benefit was surely vested by then.

I'll allow Ron Powlus on a technicality, although he wasn't your typical D1 scholarship qb. You know, that reminds me that Tommy Powlus (LB) will be a preferred walk-on at ND, and Jake Balis (RB) will be a preferred walk-on at Vandy, so there's that––even though both have connections. But the other guys I mentioned were recruited and on scholarship from the start. It's an impressive tradition. They're a tough nut to crack.

So far as p5-type programs go, I'm pretty sure it was Paul Moala. High school safety converted to LB, 2018 grad, played at ND, Idaho, GT. Looks like he's an undrafted free agent with the Bears going into his first camp. Before that, I think it was Braxton Cave. He was an '09 grad, played center at ND. I said earlier in the thread that Penn and Carmel have the number of state championships that they do, largely, because they were able to avoid BD and WC or one or both of those programs was down for a bit. That might be an exaggeration, but Penn and Carmel are a combined 1-9 against those teams when meeting in the final. Carmel has played them closer but is still 0-5––I know they've gotten through BD and WC before when they've been all been in the south. When BD or WC are state championship good, look out.

Right. The more I think about it, the more it seems like northern state championships in 5A/6A have been a function of being able to avoid BD and WC. CG is interesting because they consistently manage to beat those two in games that matter. Carmel is 0-5 against those two in the finals––with some close calls for sure––and Penn is 1-4. Both Carmel and Penn have been much more competitive with CG, although it's doubtful Penn would be today.

I think North got a couple wins in the 80s when they were in the same sectional.

For some reason I'm thinking North Central was third largest when I was in high school. Carmel, BD, NC, and then Penn or WC at either four and five. I don't think that fact throws a broomstick into your spokes or anything, just thinking that's how it was. That's understandable. I suppose I'd change my mind if Westfield falls off, but having possible matchups with Westfield and HSE in the sectional and regional seems like reason enough to tamp down any expectation of annual state finals appearances. Those schools are large enough to negate any advantage that Carmel's enrollment might give them. Although, maybe the short-leash approach is less imprudent considering they've had Dullaghan, Belden, Moriarity, and Wright stalking the sidelines and could almost certainly get whoever they want in the future.

My legal commentary was in response to the comments earlier in the thread of some wealthy group like the Carmel Dads Club challenging a prohibition of collectives and inducements in court, and how the facts don't match up with how plaintiffs have successfully challenged the NCAA––basically, scholarships = acquisition costs and therefore they can't be capped by an agreement among competitors, which we don't have in high school athletics. It seems like the GA and DOE became involved in response to the Indiana Supreme Court clarification of the analytical framework for cases arising out of rules/enforcement in Carlberg in 1997. As far as I understand it, the DOE is an alternative route to conventional legal action––which is good considering how long the legal process takes.

They could have done something, but I have no idea what would have led to a durable solution. This ball has been rolling since 1985 when the members won control of the rights to tv broadcasts of football games from the NCAA. It is proving impossible for a membership organization comprised of wildly different prerogatives to resolve the issue of cash in college athletics. Just consider that a federal court in Tennessee thinks UT is likely to prevail in a trial challenging NCAA rules prohibiting recruiting inducements or that the Ivy League is in a lawsuit challenging their no-scholarships rule––all under the Sherman Act. Good news, I don't think anyone really has to worry about this type of situation for high school athletes (inducements/collectives) in Indiana since Indiana courts treat athletics as a part of the education system and not a commercial endeavor. The IHSAA should be able to prohibit those payments. However, I think a challenge of an endorsement prohibition would be successful.

Well said. I've said before that I think the number for a competitive program should be about 2500 if everything else is in place, but, to your point, that's likely applicable only to suburban schools––which is most of the top 20 in enrollment. The hard part is getting the right guy to take charge of a program from top to bottom and getting large communities to come together instead of drifting apart. Now, to Carmel. It's tough for me, given what I think about enrollment at suburban schools, but Carmel has been so successful over the years that I'd expect them to get through their sectional more often than not and to make an appearance in a semi state every two or three years. It probably should be regional or bust for this stuff. I think finals or bust would be an imprudent stance for an administration to take.

Another great athlete from a family of them. I think he's been coaching receivers at Brownsburg. Going 2 for 2 here would be about the biggest win Penn has had in six years.

I'm not so sure they got caught with their pants down. As I understand it, they had NIL rules ready that to implement until the Supreme Court made its decision in the Alston case. Members were on notice that enforcement could get involved in pay for play situations or if schools made payments in excess of full cost of attendance payments permissible under Alston, but, outside of that notice there was limited guidance. There is the cynical view that non enforcement was intentional to secure help from Congress once NIL started looking bad. The less cynical view is that the Court's decision in Alston and the signal sent by Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence scared the NCAA off from taking a more aggressive stance on NIL and recruiting––this is probably backed up by the preliminary injunction issued against the NCAA by the Eastern District of Tennessee in the case about NIL and recruiting.

Looks like the bill is still in Michigan's senate committee on oversight. https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Bills/Bill?ObjectName=2023-HB-4816&QueryID=159688044 Basically, the bill seeks to: protect athletes' rights to enter into contracts within certain boundaries, create additional protections for minors from unscrupulous adults, mitigate abuse by schools or those adjacent to them, and ensure athlete eligibility in the age of social media influencing. Fairly reasonable legislation.

Yeah, given some experience with Indiana High School Hockey, my gut is to look toward the association's board and the boards from each team more than the coaches.

I'm certain the defense got through the game (physically) unscathed! Mentally––very, very scathed. I suppose you could argue we didn't have a single able-bodied player from the opening kickoff given the results. We for sure had one unreported head injury on special teams––of course those were the dying days of the bell-ringing era.

Bruce was big, but he might have been the fifth back on the depth chart for that team. Post and Boehnlein were strong sturdy runners. T-West was, of course, the speed guy, and we had Tyler Iams and Frank Duong competing for reps, too. My recollection of that game is basically gone, but, I seem to remember Valpo making a goal line stand that you describe in regulation in the South end zone. They beat us in OT in the North end zone that year. Unfortunately, I've lost track of the highlight tapes from those years––so I can't verify anything. I'm much sharper when it comes to '02. Same thing happened that year except worse. We had at least three drives get killed inside Valpo's five. Same scenario as you described, except we ran all of the backs into stacked boxes in that game.