PDB26

Westfield, Brownsburg ?

This is the craziest feature of the class system. Especially after the creation of 32 team classes.

Yeah but 7 of Ben Davis's championships, and 5 of Carmel's championships came back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth–prior to 2003–and nobody could count to 5327(Carmel's current enrollment). No disrespect intended to those programs or anyone old enough to have been involved with those teams or remember those years.

I think that's a fair comp, but that's not what I'm getting at.

Brutal.

This is true, but they've often been squaring off against each other in the finals, and Carmel has gone through Penn almost every time it has been a "north" school. I don't think anyone is saying Carmel had an advantage because of their enrollment in those years. Enrollment is almost certainly a red herring among similarly large schools. 1000-1500 boys–or 500 hand-picked boys, sorry–should be enough to put a competitive 6A team on the field. Like traveling 2 hours in a chartered bus, there are more significant factors on the balance. CG, Carmel, and BD are all good examples where enrollment has not been of much value as a predictor.

Well, for what it's worth, it felt like 100.

Michigan manages to get four games in on two days each year. They start at 10 I believe. I'm sure the...I'd hope the IHSAA could figure it out.

I've never been a fan of the mercy rule, but I understand the rationale. It would be harmless to include a provision that reinstates normal timekeeping when the margin is reduced to less than 35 points. Just because it hasn't happened–even if it's highly unlikely–doesn't mean it won't. I don't know about the reps since the magnitude of the situation is likely nullified by the lopsided score. But, if I'm putting myself in the shoes of a senior–having been defeated myself as a senior by a mercy-rule inducing score–I wouldn't like to have that last half shortened in any way.

And you could play all four in one day. That would be awesome.

I don't know about naming their score, but I'd give them 28. Maybe that's splitting hairs. The thing about Penn is it is (almost) always about how long can the defense hold up. That's a real short list; Warren Central, Cathedral, Homestead are the only ones that come to mind. Travel is something for coaches to manage whether it's across town or across the state. I don't really buy into it having measurable adverse effects so long as it's managed appropriately. I suppose you could cram onto a short bus with all the gear and take a three hour trip, but I don't think that's really what we're talking about here.

I am philosophically opposed to replay at all levels of sport. Practically, I could be in favor of a world in which replay reviews were conducted in some arbitrarily-short period–say thirty seconds or less–and the officials only had full speed footage to review. The mistake should be so blatantly obvious–which is to say that everyone should know something is wrong–that allowing it to stand would run counter to the idea of fair play. I'm almost certain that I'd still be opposed to this proposed format for reviews if they were to be implemented in high school sports.

@MonkeyButt probably should have said "consistently competing" or more than "occasionally competing". I do think you could say that Penn was consistently competing with Carmel for a stretch from 2013-2017. Being honest, it hasn't been pretty for the true north for about 20 years now.

Penn got knocked out in the semi state at Homestead in '98. Back to Indy in '99 to get whacked by Ben Davis, and then back in '00 for a win over Center Grove. 2 out of 3 brought back titles that year.

I agree, and I think you can safely say that most of Carmel's peers in Hamilton County have substantively caught up with them. I've been thinking of Westfield through this entire discussion. For that reason, I suggested that Carmel's performance in recent years is less a function of any single deficiency in its program than it is a function of playing in the most competitive region in the state, in a field where almost all of its peers - in Hamilton County and in the metro area - can combine enough enrollment with similarly favorable SES to challenge, catch, or surpass them, while participating in a tournament format that – I think – creates more opportunities for strong programs to fail to win their sectional.

No argument with the significance of any of that, especially the importance of feeders, and you're right to wonder about players entering a different feeder system. I'm simply wondering how long have numbers been trending down, and by how much? The point I'm driving at is that football is a high attrition sport from 3rd grade to 12th grade. So, if the numbers are down in the feeder program while staying more or less constant at 9th grade and varsity levels isn't it likely that you're seeing more families/players figure out early that football just isn't for them? Certainly, some good future players would be lost in this scenario.

I didn't think you were; I was just offering an alternative to the idea of Carmel trending down - considering we're talking about a three year span. You mention Carmel's feeder numbers, for good reason, and I think Temp raises the salient question re: participation below: Is participation at the feeder level and 9th grade really having an effect on the number and quality of players that get onto the varsity roster? And I think you and Temp both have honed in on an interesting possibility that Carmel's emergence as a large city in its own right could impact the high school's football program in a negative way.

@temptation and @GC42 propose some interesting and reasonable factors that might explain a program dropping off. I especially like the question of whether a school can get too big and a program too successful. However, isn't it likely that Carmel's recent performances are a function of the depth of competition in the Indianapolis area?. Doesn't the quality of competition in the Indianapolis area make sustained dominance difficult to the point that any team in 5A or 6A is likely to go through a stretch where they don't get out of their sectional? And isn't it reasonable to think that the 32 team classes exacerbate the difficulty of emerging from a sectional in 5A and 6A – especially in the Indianapolis area? Sure, Carmel is the largest school, but aren't most of their peers able to combine large enough enrollments with similar enough SES profiles to negate whatever speculative advantage Carmel's additional enrollment might give them?

Clay's varsity field is at their middle school, but I can't remember what they call it - Clay Field probably. Riley plays at Jackson Field, also at their middle school, and Adams and Washington play at School Field.

I think the new strength program is in its fifth year now, so that is likely paying dividends. Better late than never! Absolutely, the relative lack of peer competitors on Penn's schedule is, and has been, problematic. Penn's JVs played Jimtown last week. Nothing against Jimtown, of course, but it's a microcosm of the problem with the competitive environment.

I think you're representing the school and the program in an embarrassing way. I'm uncertain about what you're trying to prove, I am certain you are not succeeding, and I wish you would cut it out. It's not like you've come out and said who you are anyway, so what's the difference? This is some real pissant stuff. In my mind a good to great result for the Kingsmen, right now, is something like keeping it to one or two scores. It's hard to know if this team has that, even though they are obviously improved, because the previous four squads make for a low standard to measure by. I might be tempted to go on a limb if this game was being played on old Freed Field in early October in the middle of an unseasonably wet fall, but this one like turns out closer to what Temp has. Which, if you're keeping track through time, is similar to many of Penn's results against Indy area teams.

Even if the NIC was the same today as it was back then, you're ignoring 20 years of growth, development, and competition in the Indy area. I don't think you can ignore those facts. Gees is a legend. His staffs were tremendous. He wasn't infallible. I'd refer you to the 2002 Regional for that. I don't think that Gees would have made a difference in the 2003 championship. Warren's option game was a bad matchup for that year's defense. Plus, are we supposed to congratulate Gees for his former players getting to state, but then blame Yeoman for the team's performance in that game only?

Nobody could credulously say a school with over 3000 students has an enrollment issue. In a vacuum, or the suburbs, 2000 should be enough in 6A. I've always maintained that Penn's program has been damaged most by its conference affiliation. You'll get no argument from me on that issue.

You absolutely are who you play against. I've been saying this forever. Basically, but less developed.

But have you ever been to Osceola or Mishawaka? To your point, SES would have nothing to do with Penn's struggles.