Bash Riprock

NC is an outlier? Yet, they have won multiple state championships in so many other sports. They have some really strong coaches in my lifetime such as Streiff, Haste, O'Shea, etc. who have won state football championships at previous schools and just haven't got it done. If it were purely enrollment and coaching, they would have been more successful in football. Perhaps culture for the sport, feeder systems, etc., really do matter.....but hey, if you can't explain it, call it an outlier, right. Much easier that way. Angry old man? Nah, pretty happy dude. One blessed man! Curious......can you name any thread where you are NOT doing most of the talking???

Pretty sure NC used to be the largest at one time...perhaps in the 1980's and 90's. Here is a source from 2001-02 timeframe and NC was third. (note only 9-11 grades) NC has never won a state football championship. https://ihsaapublic.blob.core.windows.net/archive/b-baseball/Assignments20012003.htm NC was third in the 2017-18 timeframe https://ihsaapublic.blob.core.windows.net/portals/0/ihsaa/documents/quick resources/021317Enrollments.pdf But to your point, while I don't believe Carmel, BD and Warren were always the top 3 schools in terms on enrollment while they were winning some of their earlier titles, I understand the point you are trying to make. I just don't agree its that simple, because if it were, NC would have certainly won some titles. I do think a culture for football, feeder systems, and coaching comes into play as well. NC has won multiple titles in sports like basketball, tennis, soccer, etc. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.

or...you could just learn to shut up and let other people respond to comments directed to them. Bottom line, when he claims the top 3 current enrollment has won the majority of football state titles, they weren't always in the top 3 when they won state titles. Other schools that were perhaps larger weren't winning gridiron titles. Perhaps I don't skip anything...just grow weary of your constant hot wind. Temps are warm enough outside. Talk less...then when you do talk, people may take notice

LOL...not trying to change anyone's mind.... Question. Was Carmel, BD and WC always one of the top largest 3 schools in the state when they were winning state football championships in the largest class historically? Was Indy North Central ever in the mix as one of the state largest schools? (rhetorical question BTW) How many titles in football did NC win when they were one of the 3 largest schools? https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/State Championship History.pdf

you forgot wealthier families.....

My responses are predictable?....ok. Could I say the same about you? Should I get personal? Does it help my case? Finally...some common ground. You put your money and enrollment and wealth pieces of the pie....I'll do the same for coaching, feeder systems, and culture of the sport in that community. Under your theory, wouldn't Carmel be the champ every year?

If its true Warren is poorer than in the past (not sure how you know this for certainty) then how do you explain WC winning so many girls state championships in track since 2005? You stated in a previous response that socioeconomics was becoming a major player in track, yet a school you claim is poorer continues to win track state championships, over an extended period of time. Many of the schools in the top 10 state's enrollments are not poorer at all....just the opposite, Yet they are not successful football programs....not even close to winning state titles. Warren is a better program than many of those in the top 10...majority of them. So, not sure how you make the arguments that is always about the $$. My guess is that WC will have a pretty solid team this season. BTW, WC has won 2 state titles in football since formation of 6A. 2013-14; 2018-19 (undefeated that season with a decisive win over a very wealthy school) Jayson West moved to a program that has been down...he is building back a culture that used to be at that school in football. He is doing a fine job and the improvement is absolutely there.

As it is with most track championships. YOU used track to make your point about more effluent suburban schools on the west side winning state titles. I am saying that track doesn't need large funds to win as I don't believe the WCHS girls program is sinking big funds in track, yet they are still winning championships. 6 championships since 2005. Can you prove why it takes $$ and wealthier people to be successful at track??

And you and I will disagree about this being a massive advantage. If such an advantage, why are those programs (except BD last year) on somewhat of a down trend? Why aren't some of those other top 10 enrollment schools more successful? When Carmel, BD and Warren were winning those state championships you referenced, they all had excellent coaches and outstanding feeder systems. I coached against those feeder systems. Those variables are every bit as important than just enrollment...I would contend even more important. Absolutely...dominate girl's track program.

Don't make this personal as you closed out your dissertation. Lessens the effectiveness of your point. Also, less is more. Pontificate less. I am simply saying there are more variables to the success equation than purely numbers when it comes to football. If it were all about the numbers, there would be many other programs in the top 10 enrollments schools in this state with far better football programs. Moore has laid out a blueprint to follow and if majority of those other top enrolled schools would follow it, their program success would undoubtedly approve.

Not missing the point at all. The context was that richer suburban schools than BD (such as Avon, Plainfield, etc) being successful in sports. Your reference was they won track championships. I am saying your example is poor, because you don't need to be a wealthy school to be competitive in track...not by a long shot. Perhaps one of if not the least expensive sport offered to kids. Warren has won 6 girls state titles since over the past twenty years....seems more like a trend to me vs an exception.

Get ready to puke, because CG is not an outlier...its a model if schools choose to follow it. I would contend Westfield and others have started sometime ago to follow the model and they are reaping the benefits. If its only size about football success, then tell my why all the schools I listed in a previous post that are in the top 15 largest enrollments are not exactly tearing it up. And please don't use a school such as CG, BD, Westfield or others as their barrier for success in the post season. I think what KG is stating that the variables for success in football is much more than enrollment. Heck, if that's the case, why play at all in 6A? Carmel has it sewn up....and we all know that hasn't been the case...especially lately. Westfield and Carroll are perfect case studies...they started improving their football programs a few years back when enrollments were even smaller. (definitely in the case of Westfield) A number of other schools within their enrollment sizes have not.

You don't need lots of money to win track titles....C'mon. Who won the girl's state track championship this year? Check out how many girls track championship the same school has won since 2005. (their first of 6) Now that's funny.... Pace yourself if energy is an issue....

Been awhile....but my wife is a BD graduate....won 2 state titles in swimming and individual titles...also swam on a full ride at the D1 level....had multiple D1 offers. I just provided you several schools that have larger enrollments and I would contend solid coaches, yet are not rolling in football. To KMartGiants point, there more in the equation of success in football that just enrollment. If enrollment was king, many more top 10 to top 15 schools would be much more dominant.

If its all about enrollment...then explain why schools such as North Central, Avon and Franklin Central aren't winning more post season tournaments (sectional and above) in football. All 3 schools are in the top 10 in terms of enrollment...FC has a great football coach that has won multiple state titles at the largest class. Not buying completely in the social economic theory either, especially with these 3 schools. Same question for Noblesville, Crown Point, Elkhart, Lake Central, etc. (11-15th respectively) Meanwhile, CG's enrollment shot up from 17th to 16th......

I didn't take it as a negative....just giving props to an incredible strength program at CG. You are most likely closer to the track programs than myself....I am thinking of the days in which my kids ran (boys ands girls) and that was a few years ago. Back then, typically always strong programs. Just looked up IHSAA season results...BD did win a sectional. Warren...struggled. Looking at regional and state results, I definitely get your point. Not where both schools used to be.....

Yep...have seen many of the football players run track for BD over the years. BD has an excellent track program.

CG's kids are in the weight room too...trust me on that one. One incredible strength and conditioning coach. But I did understand your comment. You could say Coach Moore has been heavily involved in track....was the varsity boys track coach for a couple of decades. Won a state title and had a number of top 5 teams. Handed off the baton (no pun intended) to Brad Timmons this season (long time football assistant) and they had another fantastic track season in 2024.

Not sure about the golf course, but I do remember that...trying to cut the corner by going over a portion of the stadium.

Great point regarding the 3 point shot and JW...can one imagine Pistol Pete's college scoring stats had the 3 point line been in place?? https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/pete_maravich_was_incredibly_making_13_threes_a_game_before_the_three_point_line_existed_he_would_have_averaged_57_points_per_game_in_college_if_it_did/s1_16751_38289787

Its a good point.... Further point mid majors turning into a feeder system for the big schools. ISU baseball team, a top NCAA program, is losing players to big time programs. 2 already left for LSU, others for Clemson, Oregon and IU. 15 others currently in the portal.... Sigh....

Legend....

I did read the new ISU president (big fan of sports) did hire a new athletic director that is getting accolades. https://gosycamores.com/news/2024/6/12/general-indiana-state-university-appoints-nathan-christensen-as-new-director-of-athletics.aspx Christensen comes from South Dakota State, which is a powerhouse in FCS football. Hopefully, he will have this focus and get a new venue on campus. That old crap hole they play in miles from campus is turrible. (using Barkley words) Impossible to recruit in the Missouri Valley as those schools either have awesome newer stadiums and practice facilities or have re-invested significantly into their older ones improving them to today's standards. He will need to determine if ISU will continue to play at that level or get out much like Western Illinois did a couple of years ago.

Most likely you are correct, although I did see where IU ranks really high in NIL dollars generated. Will it all be spent on hoops (without much of a return in past few years) or will Coach Cigs get a bigger piece of the pie?? I did see where his paycheck almost doubled by going to the Billikens....