itiswhatitis

1 minute ago, MDAlum82 said:

Completely agree.  I may have disagreed with some of your thoughts & opinions outlined in this thread but I respect them, nonetheless.  Opinions are based on each of our own personal experiences in life and that is why they will often differ.  Doesn't make them wrong, just different.  One of my fave college profs used to say that "real understanding occurs at the point which two competing opinions collide". Life has shown that to be true.

Well said, my friend.  Well said.   

15 minutes ago, kingtut said:

It wouldn't be feasible to have one school in Greene County due to the geographic size of the county.  Two schools definitely does make sense though with east and west divided by White river which splits the county down the middle.  Eastern And Bloomfield in the east with WRV, Linton and Shakamak in the west.  That should have been done long ago. 

Put that thing smack in the middle of the county.   

2 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

EXACTLY!  Very well put.  MD "recruits" new kids everytime they face the crowd and raise their helmets after victory.  Kids of all ages are sitting in the stands (at least in a normal year!)see that and want to be a part of it.  I imagine this is no different than most successful programs be it sports, band, cheer, STEM, etc.  Success breeds success.

Linton has the North End Zone kids.   There is always a bunch of them playing football there during a Miner home game.  They are all pretending to be Miners.   I know I have heard many Miner players say they used to play in the North End Zone when they were little.

12 minutes ago, TrenchWarfare58 said:

That's the point that he is trying to make. Linton has around 105 kids in their freshman class, but don't get 25 of them out for football. MD has around 128 in their freshman class, but gets 25 or more to come out for football. Sure, having an extra 25 kids per class gives you a better chance of getting 25 out but you still gotta be able to pull the numbers from what you've got. 

I don't really buy into the enrollment=success argument much. Doesn't matter how many options your kids have for prom dates compared to mine, if my kids are bigger, faster, and stronger than yours I'm going to win 9 out of 10 times. Just like back in the day when LCC was routing everyone with a much smaller enrollment than their competition. New Palestine has built a dynasty of a program in 4A-5A playing 8-9 kids both ways every game, it's all about who can adapt and play the best with what they got. 

Anyway, this has been fun - you got some conversation happening again on Linton threads! 😉 

I've got the Miners winning tonight in a close game. They make a big play late - turnover or 4th down stop on D to seal it. Good luck to both teams, should be an awesome game!

 

That's bold!  I think  you are the only one who has picked them.   Hoping for a good game and hoping its close throughout.   Just how a title game should be,.  The 2 best going at it and leaving it all on the feld.

I've enjoyed the discussion that has been going on the past few days.  And NO ONE has been disrespectful.   That is what has been so great about it.  (For me) It's always great to talk with other fans.   I seriously doubt most of the Mater Dei fans would have posted much on here this week if this topic hadn't been brought up.  I have a great respect for Mater Dei and their fans.   Most of them are well informed and articulate.   It has been a fun week chatting.   Now it is less than 12 hours to game time.   It's really a shame they aren't allowing fans in the game.  There is nothing like a playoff game at Roy Williams Field.   It is ALWAYS electric and the Miners feed off of that energy.

3 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

I think the roster on MaxPreps is incorrect.  I see two listed that did not play this year.  They added 11 freshman to the roster for the post season.  Several of those kids didn't dress against North Knox.  We did not dress 75 and then increase it with the freshman.

I was using 75 because someone else said they had the roster in their hand and that was the number they quoted in their post.   Don't know the source they were using.  I do know the integrity of the poster and they wouldn't exaggerate or lie.  

34 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

It is just very hard for people to understand that some schools have very good/successful high school football programs. The better your coach/program, the more wins you get. The more wins you get, the more people want to be apart of that program. Kids want to be apart of successful programs. 

If your band is constantly winning/going to state, odds are they are going to have more kids join band. I am not saying Linton isn't a successful program (because that would be a lie), they just aren't as successful in 2A. "there is no chance we can win sectional, why should we even play" 

Mater Dei has a legitimate shot to represent the south half of Indiana every single year. That looming in their student body probably makes kids think "I want to be apart of that"

I agree that coaching has a lot to do with success.   However I feel that numbers are the start.  Even coaches who are considered the best still need numbers.   The more you have, the better off you are.  It's a good problem for a coach to have a choice between 4 running backs vice one or 2.   Even with success, I see numbers as how a program is sustained.  I get that some kids want to play for a winner. and some feel it's a waste of their time to play for a team that doesn't have any success.  That's the mentality of teenagers.   I have just as much respect (and sometimes more) for those who still play on teams and still put in the work who aren't as successful.  I've been to Linton games and seen kids on the other team play and just admire their "game".   You could tell they were the best player on that team and would sometimes wonder how they would be on another team.  I suppose that happens all across America and not just in Indiana.   And yes, I may sound like a homer, but Linton does have a successful program, but most of it has been in 1A.   Coach Oliver and his staff are too good not to figure out how to start winning in 2A.  It's only going to be a matter of time.  Once you start winning some sectionals, the rest will follow.  There's usually that one class that comes along and puts down that foundation for the program to build on.  I've seen it happen and not just at Linton.

I have never once bashed on Mater Dei for their numbers in any of my posts.   I just find it amazing that a school that small can have 75 on a roster when NO ONE goes there to play football and they haven't won a lot of titles.   I give them kudos for their participation, but (LOL) still say it's an advantage over other schools their size.  That isn't bashing, just a fact.   Who has a better chance at winning the lottery?   a person with 75 tickets or one with 40?  Eh, maybe that wasn't a great analogy.  LOL

14 hours ago, Uncle Rico said:

Let's take your freshman team argument from a few posts back.  In the 2019-2020 school year, Mater Dei's freshman class was 128 students(right in line with other schools in the sectional except Linton who is a little smaller school).  Linton's freshman class was 105.  Assuming half of those are males, MD had a 64 kid pool to possibly play football and Linton had 52.  So Mater Dei get's 25 + of those kids out playing football and Linton doesn't have enough to form a team(in your words).  Numbers wise, there's not a big difference between the 2 schools class size wise.  Isn't it part of the equation for a football head coach and program to get as many of those kids out playing football as possible?

Your math is quite a bit off there Uncle.  Linton NEVER has 25 out for football in a class.  You look at this year's roster.   There are 42.  That is an average of 10.5 per class.  The senior class only has 5.   And when you consider the Freshmen are playing on JV to be able to have a JV team the reality of the situation is there isn't enough for a freshman team.  So those are not just "my words". I realize it isn't another school's fault for another school's numbers.  My point to this whole discussion was how many "extra" numbers that MD gets over other schools.   75 on your roster (and someone posted that will be bigger now that freshman season is over.  So you average 25 per class if you don't count your freshman. If you think about it, that is superior numbers over a lot of other schools.  You may argue that numbers don't equate to wins, but it gives a team an advantage over choices of who you can draw the talent from.   Not to mention having most of your starters playing only one way.  In small school ball that is huge.  Your team stays fresher for 4 quarters especially with the linemen.

2 hours ago, Miner_Pride said:

I think injuries would still be of concern.. particularly with a kid who is very talented.  I would think the numbers would help in having that pool to replace an injured player. I'm sure there are 2nd teamers at MD who could start at other 2A schools.  Where as in Linton it's not unusual at all to have sophomores and on occasion a freshman start simply because there aren't numbers... not saying they aren't very good freshmen or sophomores.  In fact I see 3 sophs  starting on Offense at MD.... like Linton...both QBs are sophs.  Both teams have a soph starting on Defense as well. 

Well of course injuries are a concern.  I just meant they are lesser of a concern due to having such a large roster.

1 minute ago, Miner_Pride said:

I think injuries would still be of concern.. particularly with a kid who is very talented.  I would think the numbers would help in having that pool to replace an injured player. I'm sure there are 2nd teamers at MD who could start at other 2A schools.  Where as in Linton it's not unusual at all to have sophomores and on occasion a freshman start simply because there aren't numbers... not saying they aren't very good freshmen or sophomores.  In fact I see 3 sophs  starting on Offense at MD.... like Linton...both QBs are sophs.  Both teams have a soph starting on Defense as well. 

75 - 42?  Who usually wins that "fight"?  As I said, they have their numbers and why they can be successful against some of the bigger schools.   When you are only looking for 22 starters, having 75 to choose from is a big advantage over  most other schools, even some bigger classes.   I get they play one of the toughest SOS in all of 2A but they are best prepared to play that SOS than most 2A teams.   And yeah I get they have a great head coach but it starts with the numbers.   MD has them.  Anyone else in 2A with a bigger roster?

38 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

I don't have the roster in front of me, but there are only a few kids on the team that didn't have family attend MD.  All these kids grew up in the MD feeder leagues.  They did not choose MD just to play football.  That's what you aren't understanding.  These kids grew up wanting to wear the red/gold, but they would still be attending MD even if there was no football because that is where their parents, aunt/uncles and grandparents all went.

No I understand that kids want to go where their parents/family members did.   And it's just a coincidence that some of them happen to play football (but so many?).   Sorry you can tell I am STILL not buying it.  You get your numbers even having to share with other schools.   It is what it is.  Other schools need to figure out a way to get around that imbalance if that's even possible. 

22 minutes ago, South Paw said:

I agree that it can. I don't agree that it definitely does. I think there's a lot that goes into that. Talent, attitude and work ethic are big factors. Give me 25-30 kids with decent talent and work ethic against 3 talented kids and 50 mediocre kids with questionable work ethic or attitudes, and I will win 95% of the time. Obviously MD has figured out how to compete with schools that have bigger rosters. I think there can also be advantages to being smaller. More opportunity for chemistry. More focused coaching on specific player development. Less wasted time in practice. Depth and injuries would be the main concerns with a smaller roster.

But depth and injuries are of no concern to MD because they always have the numbers.   You know saying that you have a better work ethic or a better attitude is hogwash.   There are lots of teams with a great work ethic and attitudes.   You get no argument from me that MD can compete with bigger schools.  Their SOS and record against that SOS is a fact and proves they can.   All I have been saying is they get more numbers than most other 2A programs.   You dress 75 for cripes sake!  Pretty dang impressive for a 2A school and even some 3A and 4A schools.

12 minutes ago, South Paw said:

Numbers definitely don't hurt. I haven't witnessed 75 dressed for Mater Dei. They may dress more now that their freshman season is over. I don't think the playing rotation is that much different than other 2A teams. They have kids going both ways.  When a program is successful, especially in a smaller school, everyone wants to be a part of it. I know when I was at Castle in the late 80s, we had kids that went to brutal practices/conditioning every day, including summer two-a-days in the scorching heat, knowing that they weren't goinFg to see the field even as seniors. They still wanted to wear the jersey in the hallways and be able to say they were part of the team and were willing to pay their dues to be able to do that. Of course Castle was also more "blue collar" in those days with a lot of kids from Amax, Alcoa, Whirlpool, farming or other similar backgrounds. 

Okay so you get what I'm saying about the numbers.   It can and does make a difference.   Freshman season?  What's that?   Most 2A schools don't have enough to make a freshman team.   My old high school in Ohio had a freshman team, a JV team and a varsity team.  But we had 1200+ students.  It was weird moving to Linton after I retired from the Navy and seeing such a smaller school with football.  At my old high school it was a HUGE deal for JV players to get picked to dress with the varsity on Friday night and IF you saw the field in mop up time well it was like being made king for a night.   Freshmen NEVER dressed with the Varsity.   Here, JV get to play a lot including freshmen during  mop up time on Friday nights.   At least they do at Linton.

21 minutes ago, Spitting Llamas said:

What you don't understand is that none of them go to MD for football. Some go to MD and play football. Football isn't the reason they attend Mater Dei. I hate to say it, but if you were going to go to an Evansville school solely to play football, it wouldn't be Mater Dei. They go for the education and because their grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles all did. 

Think how that looks to an outsider.  Some of them STILL go to MD and play football yet NONE of them go to MD for football?   So the ones who play football decide to play AFTER they get to MD?  Sorry I don't buy that.   Maybe some decide after they get there but NOT all.   I get that it's a tradition with some families and why they would attend school there.  But MD is going to get their share of football players.   It isn't just a coincidence they end up there.  That sounds like someone trying to sell "something".  I originally started this conversation by saying MD gets an edge in numbers due to the amount of feeder systems.   You can't change numbers.   They are always going to be there.  Oh sure they will go up and down depending on the population change.    But in 2018, Evansville's population was 117,000+.  And yes those aren't all parochial type citizens and yes you have to share with other private schools.   I get that.  But the chances go up that you will get more the more people that live there.   Try starting a private school in a town with only 5,000.  Not gonna happen.

3 minutes ago, Cappy said:

We have it in wrestling also, one brother wrestles for Mater Dei and one wrestles for North Posey. Seems to be happening more and more We have a teacher at North Posey who has a daughter in high school, a 6th grade son at NP, couple younger children that will attend NP, but her oldest son (7th grade) left NP school district and entered St. Wendel Catholic School this last year. He is no longer playing sports with the NP kids, now plays with the Mater Dei kids. 

That is just mind boggling.  How in the world do they make that all work?!?

5 minutes ago, South Paw said:

I would tend to lean towards Mater Dei's community, culture, and coaching when trying to understand the reasons for their success. There is a competitive mindset, tradition, and chemistry that you don't find at many other places anymore. Mater Dei seems to have been able to maintain that "old school", hard-nosed, disciplined mentality that many programs have lost over the years with the softening of society in general. If you look at Coach Goebel's resume as both a football and wrestling coach, there's no doubt his systems work. He was one of the most successful high school wrestling coaches in the country, not just the state. His staff is also very good. They get kids to buy-in and do whatever it takes to be successful. It's a true "team above self" culture. The entire school has that mindset, not just the athletic programs. I think many of the families have that same attitude, so the entire Mater Dei community plays a part. Families give the coaches kids that are prepared to go into the system. You just don't see that much anymore.

I totally get and appreciate the old school mentality.   But will also say, 75 dressed on a 2a roster is HUGE.  You rarely see that many at the majority of 2A schools.   I believe coaching has a lot to do with a program being successful regardless of their numbers.   Some of the things you have mentioned about MD you could also say the same about Linton.  The biggest difference is the numbers and that I guess will never change.  Bigger area, bigger numbers even if you have to fight other schools for them.  It isn't that MD is the only school getting these kids.   But it is the opportunity they have (just like the other schools) to sign them.  They are going to get some of them.

1 minute ago, Spitting Llamas said:

These kids aren't just football players, the are students. They are male and female. It's not like the feeder schools are football farms. 

No I understand that Llamas.  That's why I said in an earlier post maybe 3 of them go to MD for football.   I didn't think the entire class was all boys and they all played football.   Give me a little credit here.  LOL

13 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

I would say it is likely more a financial thing than a political thing when kids decide to attend one of the public schools vs MD or Memorial. 

None of the feeder schools have 30 in their class.  My son's 8th grade class had I think 20 kids.  I would guess that most 8th grade classes that feed MD have 15-20 kids.  

Okay financial.   And probably which school will give my kid the best education, too?   Then as someone else mentioned, some kids go to public schools for their high school.   I just wanted to say, "this has been a good discussion".   I like chatting about certain topics and not getting into a fight over them and actually having a conversation.   Thanks to all.

58 minutes ago, Cappy said:

I would add that sometimes it gets divided within families, for example a North Posey Football player (WR, DB) has a brother who is the starting QB at MD.

That must be one crazy household.  I feel sorry for the parents trying to support 2 different athletes at 2 different schools but in the same family?  How do you make that work?   Yikes!

52 minutes ago, Spitting Llamas said:

Many of those schools only have 12-15 kids per class, some have more but likely not more than 25-30 and as stated not all of those attend Mater Dei. Trust me, the school is trying to increase the enrollment, not keep it down for athletics. 

Oh I wasn't suggesting that MD was holding down their enrollment for athletics.   It is just a bit mind numbing when you say, "8 feeder schools" vice only one.   I can imagine the "recruiting" that goes on between the private schools to get those players from the 12 - 15 or 25 - 30 kids.   I can imagine part of it is $$ and part of it is which school will give my kid the best education, besides the athletics.  Still the numbers are much bigger for even one private school than a public school.   And yes I know it was posted that some go to a public school.   I can imagine that has ONLY to do with the sports.

9 minutes ago, Spitting Llamas said:

Many of those schools only have 12-15 kids per class, some have more but likely not more than 25-30 and as stated not all of those attend Mater Dei. Trust me, the school is trying to increase the enrollment, not keep it down for athletics. 

Yeah I got the part about not all of them attend Mater Dei.  Is that kind of a "political" thing?   "Attend our school because it is better than the other guys?"  Just wondered.  Even still a portion of those go to Mater Dei and multiply that by 8 feeders and that still gives additional players to Mater Dei.   Maybe I should say there is the "opportunity" to get more.   At other 2A programs, they have only one grade school.   Maybe that one grade school has 80 kids per class.   Mater Dei with 8 schools and 25 - 30 kids per class is looking at the possibility of 200 - 240 more potential students.   Yeah, yeah not all of them go to Mater Dei, but the "potential" is there and you know they get some of them.   Other schools get what they get.  No chance to pick up any extra players only from one grade school.

2 minutes ago, Miner_Pride said:

Curses Curses and More Curses....!

I take it you don't like that suggestion?  LOL

5 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I just asked a buddy of mine that teaches at WRV how many kids do you guys lose to Linton for football? He said 2or 3 out of every class. WRV has looked into adding football to help in keeping their kids.

Parents at WRV have been wanting to add football for years as far back as the early 2000's that I know of.   Bloomfield tried recently.  They keep getting shot down.   Apparently too many people still have a basketball only mentality or something like that. Or they don't want to spend the money.   You know they should just consolidate all 5 schools and just called it Greene County.  Of course that would put them in 3A or 4A for enrollment.   But 5 schools into one would really boost ALL sports in Greene County and no more kids  would have to leave one school to go to another for just one sport.

9 minutes ago, jets said:

I was a "Rockers" fan all the way. Marty Jannetty and Shawn Michaels - what a team! The betrayal in the barber shop still haunts me to this day. 

And, the bushwackers were awesome as well! 

Kinda like how Linton draws from all over Gerreene County.....(sorry, couldn't help it) 

Hardly.  Linton and Eastern Greene both have football programs.  White River Valley, Bloomfield ,and Shakamak do not.   They are the other 3 schools in Greene county.   A VERY few kids who play youth football will transfer to Linton to play high school ball.  VERY few.  I have known of only a handful in the past 25 years.   There were a few kids from Dugger (Sullivan county) who transferred to Linton after Dugger closed down and that is one of the reasons Linton had to stay in 2A (enrollment).  It wasn't from the success factor.

26 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Holy Redeemer - some go to Memorial, some end up at Central

Corpus Christi - have had kids end up at Reitz

Resurrection - have had kids end up at Reitz

St. Joe - I know some kids ended up at North

St. Wendel - some end up at North Posey

West Side Catholic - have had kids end up at Reitz

St. Phillip (in Posey county) - some of these kids end up at North Posey or Mt. Vernon

St. James (in Gibson county) - many of these kids end up at Gibson Southern

Holy smokes!  8 different feeder schools?!?  The majority of other 2A schools have ONE grade school.  I noticed you put on there that some go to other schools.  However "some" go to Mater Dei.   Let's just say 3 kids in every class go to Mater Dei every year and play football.   That is 24 more players they get than your average 2A school gets.  They have the numbers every year over other schools especially in their sectional.   I would think that is a main reason why they can stay so dominant.  I thought I I read a comment that MD had 64  players on the roster this year.   Most other 3A schools have half to two thirds that many.   Don't take this wrong.  I am NOT bashing MD for their success.  I am just a bit taken back by their numbers and how they can stay 2A with enrollment and draw from 8 different feeder schools.  Maybe my 3 is a high guess but I felt it was rather low.  Only bringing this up for discussion and not wanting to start a fight.  And thanks for the reply Wildcat1992.