foxbat

Agreed. I think this goes to some of the stuff that others have been saying as well about SF eventually shaking things out assuming that: It gets a longer time window ... say four years compared to two. The longer time window would serve a purpose two ways. It would make it less likely that a class would push a team up as opposed to program success being the catalyst. I think this would go a long way toward dampening the complaints of some folks that don't like SF because the class-after feels the brunt of the class-before's success. In a sense you would get rid of some of the "false positives" that might push a team. It would have less yo-yo effect for teams going up and down and there would be more opportunity for permanency. This would be the opposite of the class-after bearing the brunt of the class-before, but would be more focused on the classification group. That is, the lack of performance from a school's class is much less impactful in moving a school back down with a four-year window than with a two-year. It's done on a rolling basis as opposed to a fixed cycle. This would get rid of situations like WeBo where a team could win two back-to-back titles in consecutive years. Folks don't get "cute" with scheduling teams. Matter of fact, I think it would highly behoove the IHSAA to have an add-on to the way that they implement SF in that, when teams move up, they ARE NOT assigned to a section which has another team with SF implications. We've discussed in another thread that. with LCC moving up to 2A, there's potentially a chance for Pioneer and LCC to meet again, but in 2A. If the IHSAA gets cute and assigns LCC and Pioneer to the same sectional they are GUARANTEEING that one or both could be back down in 1A by the next cycle via the following scenarios: Pioneer wins sectional in first year, LCC in the next. Both lose regional both years. At end of the cycle, both move down to 1A. LCC wins sectional in first year, Pioneer in the next. Both lose regional both years. At end of the cycle, both move down to 1A. LCC wins sectional in both years and Pioneer moves down to 1A. Pioneer wins section both years and LCC moves down to 1A. Implications for not getting cute and doing the more sensible/though-out thing of putting LCC and Pioneer in different regions gives both an opportunity to win back-to-back sections and both to stay up or both to lose a sectional and win a regional and both stay up ... that's what will happen to Pioneer this cycle. This scenario though CAN'T happen if you get cute and put LCC and Pioneer in the same sectional. This would also be the case if Roncalli and Cathedral both end up in 5A together or a situation where Chatard and Roncalli end up in the same class together. Being cute plays well in the current, but it short-circuits the long-term, more desired results.

In all seriousness, that's not a bad idea. It'd be like having a rec league and a travel league. If you want to be in the competitive league, then you sign up in that one. if you just want to play without the "pressures" of competition, then you sign up for the other one. That way there's no "forcing" anyone up, out, or to be in a league of just a small group. The deicision would be made by the program itself which would be the ultimate level of self-determination.

LCC lost to SouthAdams. I know they are in Amish Country, but I don't think South Adams considers themselves private. By the way, LCC didn't just lose to South Adams, they were BEAT by SouthAdams. Some folks go to jail for that kind of beating.

I'm not really seeing this as being legit. Look, you are making a claim about the advantages of PP based on socio-economic reasons and plenty of qualitative things that can't accurately be measured even if inferences might point in a direction. If there's anything that has a pretty good set of metrics attached to it, including success rates in schools, likely drug addiction, ability to get admissions to college, etc. the free/reduced lunch numbers would be one of the items. They are also a metric that tends to be easily applied, in set form, across ALL schools. Myself, I like imposing something tied to performance, but if we are going to instead hit folks with something to bump them up as a "predictive item," would it make more sense to tie it to a fairly easily-measurable item?

There are also 26 PP schools in 6A alone in Texas and another 35 in 5A alone. Indiana doesn't have a single school that qualifies as 5A / 6A. As a matter of fact, compared to Indiana, Texas PP schools number more than 50% of Indiana's total numbers with public and PP combined. That's an interesting idea. So what we are saying is that PPs will figure a way to step their game up, but if you are a public school, you are incapable of being able to step up your game? Based on this year and last year, perhaps, but based on their history, I'm not sure that this year is indicative of where they will be long-term. after all, we are only talking about six seasons worth of data points. Folks said the same thing last season after TPCH showed up in its 2nd sectional championship game in two years. They've been around for 8 seasons now and their records are: 2020 2019 9-2 2018 10-2 2017 5-4 2016 4-5 2015 3-6 2014 0-9 2013 0-8 Incidentally, by comparison, TPCS all-time record compared to a couple of different 1A programs: Frontier: 2-3 Edinburgh: 2-2 Indiana Deaf: 1-5 Clinton Prairie: 1-1 Dugger Union: 3-2 Oldenberg Academy: 0-2 Park Tudor: 2-1

Covenant Christian and South Adams both dress less than 40 and have done fairly well this season. Frontier's roster was only 25 this season and have started doing a nice job of rebuilding their program. Matter of fact, most of 1A dresses less than 40.

I'd wager that Frankfort could beat Indy Shortridge and Gary West too. I doubt that would suffice in your eyes as criteria for backing a belief that they should remain in 4A. Against 3A competition, LCC is 8-12 over the last two SF cycles, four years, against 3A teams with six of those wins coming against Northwestern and Benton Central. They won a regional in 2014, but lost the second game of the sectional in 2013.

To copy it: Save it on your computer as a PDF or picture. Open a post. Type in whatever text you want. Click on this link here Select the file from your computer and click OK. Then submit reply. That should do it.

You can argue that 1) the difference between 6A and 5A is the reason that 6A exists to begin with and 2) there's a fairly decent difference between the first 16 and the second 16 in 6A in general; perhaps with the exception of Center Grove.

It's kind of like last year with TPCS. Folks talked about how quickly they got to a sectional championship with LCC and had been in the sectional title the year before ... and they probably would have again this season too, except that folks also didn't look at the details which seemed to indicate more about classes than the program as a whole. They started out their first two seasons 0-8 and 0-9, then went 3-6, 4-5, 5-4. Then they went 10-2 and 9-2 and people took notice talking about their advantage with their two sectional championship appearances in two years. This year they went 4-4 with losses to Frontier, Park Tudor, and Lutheran in 1A and Lapel in 2A. This season you could see the drop off from the last two seasons as they graduated a fairly decent chunk of talent ... which didn't need to be a lot since they really didn't have big numbers last season.

Looks like they are saving their money for the postage on the recruiting flyers. 😀 Lord, I apologize for that.

If you get behind them, you are stuck there until the next side road? 😀 Lord, I apologize for that.

It's not as "hip" here in Indiana ... it's known by its less common, more desperate tag #CBDWarriorFootball. 😀

I've not coached up in that neck of the woods, but I've certainly been known to get into mischief with coaches on the opposite side of the field during youth games ... nothing bad, just a little chicanery. 😁

Is the other tag #420WarriorFootball? 😀 Lord, I apologize for that.

This is the same issue with LCC ... the outflow tends to be much more than the inflow and the vast majority of inflow takes place around 6th-7th grade at the latest and usually from kindergarten/1st grade. Then there's also the kids from the other Christian schools that either return to their Christian high schools for high school or head to the public schools.

Depends on whether it's city speed or county speed.

Agreed. I'd like to see the 4-year cycle myself ... would likely be better averaging out. Or even the proposal I put forth with a four-year cycle in another thread.

Realize that the season before Cass knocked off 3A West Lafayette for the HC championship, beat Pioneer, and picked up a sectional. You don't always know that a team will go from 11-2 to 2-8 in one season.

That'll definitely hamstring you.

1A - Covenant Christian has a lower SOS than South Adams. Post season SOS is similar, but the advantage swings to SA if you look at regional and semi-state opponents where SA got an average SOS of opponents for Southwood and LCC of 40.84. Covenant Christian's respective opponents South Putnam and West Washington combined for an average SOS of 27.38 which is fairly significant. Of interest is that both teams combined to knockoff last year's North/South representatives at LOS. Covenant Christian beat last year's runner up by 8, while SA beat the defending state champs 42-9. I would give SA the data and the momentum going into next week. 2A - I'm going to go with WeBo who will be making a three-peat appearance at at LOS with a unique opportunity in the SF era of winning three back-to-back titles in the same class. Kind of been-there-done-that-got-the-rings. Funny that for all of the discussions about PP dominance, this fact seems to have slipped the conversations ... probably because it pokes a couple of holes in the narrative. Luers came back and beat Pioneer, but not until getting the scare of their lives while WeBo easily handled MD who was supposed to be the PP heir-apparent in 2A this year.

I'd suspect that WeBo might be a little deeper too. A big thing that hurt pioneer was their player that went down who, I believe, was also the punter and maybe even the kicker. Losing a punter and a placekicker, in addition to a starting lineman, is tough for a small school to pivot on; especially if it's 1A playing in 2A.

I'm going to call BS! First of all, you are completely crazy if you think that LCC "throws games" to go back to 1A. Secondly, you are talking from a position of not knowing at all, but again, it's all about perception, not reality. In the years that LCC was in 2A, there was a different SF model where a school needed at least 3-4 points to stay up in 2A ... that has been reduced to 2 points now ... AFTER LCC was in 1A. In the two years that LCC was in 2A, to again refute the insane idea that they threw games, LCC lost in a sectional game to eventual state runner up Tipton 28-24 and was about 25 seconds from taking that game which was the second sectional game. In the following year, LCC lost to eventual 2A state champion RCHS 17-14 in semi-state. You really believe that LCC would "throw" a 2A semi-state game with a chance to go play a 2A state title game that they likely would have won? Also, by that type of statement, you also diminish the efforts of fellow HC competitors Tipton and RCHS who fought hard for their games that year and I think would set you very straight about whether or not they thought LCC was "phoning it it" or "dogging it" to get back to 1A. I'd suggest, if you want a direct accounting on this, you check in with @Coach Nowlin who was with that championship RCHS team on the sidelines. I'm pretty sure he'll shoot straight with you about whether or LCC was dogging it.

You're avoiding the question. You're going to seriously tell me that Frankfort's up year this season would keep them from getting beaten by New Pal in their down season? Actually we see it in a number of places ... well some of us see it.

I don't have a problem with it. If you show me something that they did illegally, then let's look. LCC's been around since 1956. Took 20 years before it had its first state title. They then went on to lose out to many different public schools year in and year out taking no more so than a sectional. Matter of fact, until this year, LCC usually either won it all or lost out early. This is LCC's first semi-state loss in 1A. Prior to this year, according to Harrell's, LCC's only had one other regional win where they didn't win state ... and that was in 2A under Success Factor over Lapel. In essence, the school has been around 64 years, yet only won two regionals outside of a state title. That means that, for 54 other years of LCC's existence 1A teams have all had opportunity. Of course, LCC's got this "great advantage" which somehow or another they failed to capitalize on for the better part of about five decades including around 30 years ago when the school was scheduled to be shutdown until an 11th-hour appeal to the Bishop to keep the high school open. It's taken them LOTS of effort and determination to get where they are, but it continually gets brushed aside like these kids are somehow or another just showing up and collecting trophies and "hiding out" from the competition. The narrative is that LCC's "stealing opportunity from 1A schools, but in reality, 1A schools have had the opportunity 85% of the other seasons to not have LCC in the way. And realize that, in four of those seasons, we're talking about an era of uniqueness that only a handful of 1A schools, like Sheridan and Pioneer, have experienced. So to answer the question ... no, I don't have a problem with it. In the same vein, I have no problem with Parke Heritage showing up last season as a consolidation of two schools which hadn't seen a sectional title between the two of them in a decade, and being a Top 10 team last season and this season in the IFCA Coaches' Poll. It makes for good sound bite and clickbait, but I give the teams credit for what they do ... especially to South Adams for knocking off LCC this year in an unmistakable, decisive win that left no doubt as to who the better team was in that game.