HoopsCoach

17 hours ago, JQWL said:

I thought the biggest 32 were 6A. The bottom 64 were 1A. Next 64 were 2A and so on for 3A and 4A. Then the overflow went into 5A. That's why we get weird numbers in 5A sometimes like 37.

That’s the way they did it when there were more than 320 schools with 11 man football.  There are less than 320 now.

57 minutes ago, psaboy said:

What does pin location color mean? I assuming sectional number, has that been assigned?

It’s a suggestion for sectional assignments made by the poster, nothing official.  The enrollments have not been released by the IHSAA.  They were pulled from the DOE, so they give a preview of the numbers that could be used to determine alignments for the next cycle.

5 hours ago, temptation said:

Looks like they lost 400+ students since the last count?  That’s pretty significant.

Warren Central’s enrollment is down, but almost all of the students lost can be attributed to the Warren Online Academy. If you add the 379 students from the online school to the enrollment at WCHS, it puts them right around the number they had last year (3748 this year, 3788 last year).  So their enrollment hasn’t really dropped.  I’m not sure if they allow their online students to participate in athletics.  Either way, it has no impact on the classification for Warren Central in any sport.

48 minutes ago, BTF said:

So is Cathedral still 6A? I'm seeing them in both 6A and 4A. 

Yes, Cathedral will be 6A.  I left them in the enrollment list for 4A by mistake.

I forgot to remove South Bend Clay.  That school will close at the end of this year.  The cut line for the 1A, 2A, and 3A could move depending upon which schools who are new to 11 man football play in the tournament and closures like South Bend Clay which takes away a current football school.

The DOE has released enrollment data from the fall count day for the 23-24 school year.  Here are the enrollments for each school for grades 9-12.  I made a tentative split for each class just to give an idea where they could be.  Note that there always seems to be a few schools that have slightly different numbers when the IHSAA releases their enrollments for classification.  

Two schools in particular really stood out as having enrollments that were significantly lower than their 2022-23 enrollments - Rochester and Mitchell.  I think there may have been some kind of reporting error.  For now, I left them in the classroom they would have been in based upon previous enrollments, but I did list the enrollment that was listed by the DOE.

Schools with an * did not report their data to the DOE, so their enrollments are listed as the same as the number they gave the IHSAA in 2022.  I included Indianapolis Irvington, Fort Wayne Blackhawk Christian, Greenwood Christian, and Lafayette Faith Christian since they have moved to 11 man football or plan to do so, and they are tournament eligible schools.  I also moved the schools who earned enough success factor points in the current cycle to be in a higher class.

1 hour ago, Payne said:

2023-24 enrollment numbers are up on the DOE website.

 

Got ‘em. Starting a new post with the numbers.

12 hours ago, qbcoach13 said:

Does anyone know when this year's enrollment numbers will be released by the State? 

10 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

paging @crimsonace1 and @HoopsCoach

Our go to members who DOMINATE this area 

In recent years, enrollment data has been released around this time of the year - roughly mid-December.  I’ve checked almost daily for the last week or so and there hasn’t been any data for this year released.  Count day was moved back to the start of October instead of mid-September, so it could come out a little later.

I’ll be glad to put something together once they are released, but I’m always interested in having others take a look at it to see if there are any details I missed or errors.

As I said in my regional sites post, I am an advocate of neutral sites to host tournament games after the sectional round, and I think the facilities in Indiana are capable of a format with neutral site hosts for regional and semi-state.  Here are my hypothetical neutral site semi-states for this year.  This time I am presenting two options.  The first is single games played on Friday night.  The second features two games played at one site on Saturday afternoon/evening.  All games in both options would be at locations with turf fields.  This will reduce travel times for the majority of the games and remove field conditions as a variable.   Just like the regionals, it gives host schools an opportunity to showcase the investment they have made in their facilities.  Which format do you prefer?

Neutral Site Semi-States

Friday Night - Single Game

6A

Crown Point/Westfield@ Lafayette Jeff

Ben Davis/Center Grove @ Southport

5A

Merrillville/FW Snider @ Plymouth

Decatur Central/Bloomington South @ Martinsville

4A

NorthWood/Leo @ Columbia City

New Palestine/East Central @ Greensburg

3A

Knox/Indianapolis Chatard @ Northwestern

Gibson Southern/Heritage Hills @ Evansville North

2A

Lafayette Central Catholic/FW Luers @ Logansport

Southmont/North Posey @ Bedford North Lawrence

1A

North Judson/Adams Central @ Maconaquah

Sheridan/Indianapolis Lutheran @ Lawrence North

Saturday Afternoon/Evening - Two Games

@ Maconaquah

Lafayette Central Catholic/FW Luers

Knox/Indianapolis Chatard

@ Columbia City

North Judson/Adams Central

NorthWood/Leo @ Columbia City

@ Plymouth

Merrillville/FW Snider

Crown Point/Westfield

@ Avon

Sheridan/Indianapolis Lutheran

Ben Davis/Center Grove

@ Columbus North

New Palestine/East Central

Decatur Central/Bloomington South

@ Washington

Southmont/North Posey

Gibson Southern/Heritage Hills

1 hour ago, Jbk2 said:

Not trying to be smart aleck but you have a 3a game and a 2a game being played at Bedford is one on a Saturday?

Thanks for catching that.  I started to make a list of double header games on Saturdays and had both of those at Bedford.  I forgot to change the 3A game to Jeffersonville when I made the list into single games on Friday nights.

I am an advocate of neutral sites to host tournament games after the sectional round, and I think the facilities in Indiana are capable of a format with neutral site hosts for regional and semi-state.  Here are my hypothetical neutral site regional games for this year.  All games would be played at locations with turf fields.  This will reduce travel times and remove field conditions as a variable.   It also gives schools an opportunity to showcase the investment they have made in their facilities.

Neutral Site Regionals - Friday Night

6A

Crown Point/Penn @ Chesterton

HSE/Westfield @ Noblesville

Ben Davis/Cathedral @ Arsenal Tech

Warren Central/Center Grove @ Franklin Central

5A

Merrillville/Valparaiso @ Hobart

Mishawaka/FW Snider @ Warsaw

Decatur Central/Whiteland @ Southport

Bloomington South/Evansville North @ Jasper

4A

New Prairie/NorthWood @ SB St Joe

Leo/Mississinewa @ Huntington North

Mooresville/New Palestine @ Greenwood

East Central/Evansville Memorial @ Silver Creek

3A

West Lafayette/Knox @ Kankakee Valley

Delta/Indianapolis Chatard @ Pendleton Heights

Tri-West/Gibson Southern @ Bloomington North

Batesville/Heritage Hills @ Bedford NL

2A

LaVille/Lafayette Central Catholic @ Logansport

FW Luers/Bluffton @ Norwell

Southmont/Eastern Hancock @ Plainfield

Triton Central/North Posey @ Bedford North Lawrence

1A

North Judson/Park Tudor @ Northwestern

Carroll/Adams Central @ Oak Hill

Sheridan/North Decatur @ Greenfield Central

Indianapolis Lutheran/Providence @ Seymour

On 6/26/2023 at 1:53 PM, Basementbias said:

I'll have to ask Jay County's attorney if he's heard anymore. He had the drawings & designs for all 3 of them. Believe it was due to grant $ from the state being sent to the ACAC schools. Hopefully the conference isn't requiring turf going forward, but could see it.

What high school athletic conference requires turf?  I can’t imagine too many with the authority to dictate to their members that they must have turf.  The investment in turf seems much more like a local decision made by a school corporation with no influence (other than envy) from other conference schools.  There are several conferences with mostly large urban and suburban districts as members that consist of schools which all have turf fields, but it probably wasn’t due to a conference bylaw.  I could be wrong, but I’m interested if you know of any with a bylaw like that.

On 6/12/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gipper said:

I've never been a fan of the Bombers in the HC.  Sure, the matchups with BC, Twin Lakes, West Lafayette (and to that end Central Catholic) make sense--but there are no natural rivalries with anybody else.   I think the Northwest Crossroads would be a much better fit.  Same time zone and a natural rivalry with Kankakee Valley who is out there on an island.  Decent proximity to Lowell and Hanover Central as well...

It would make sense for KV and Rensselaer to be in the same conference.  KV has outgrown Rensselaer by a lot but there isn’t a significant difference between them in the strength of their athletic programs.

The Hoosier Conference will probably continue their patchwork and try to get Lebanon to replace Northwestern. The Tigers are not a bad fit and they are looking for a home, but I wonder if they want to bring Danville and Tri-West with them.

I know this will be another example of things that are unlikely to happen, but the Hoosier Conference and the remaining members of the Sagamore could split into 2 conferences like this.  KV would be a decent fit for the Hoosier in my opinion, so I’m including them as a 7th member.

Hoosier Conference

Logansport 1214

Kankakee Valley 1074

West Lafayette 730

Twin Lakes 674

Benton Central 508

Rensselaer Central 468

Lafayette Central Catholic 294

Sagamore Conference

Lebanon 1027

Western 819

Danville 778

Hamilton Heights 710

Tri-West 613

Tipton 439

16 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

While this looks good on paper,  I don't see the Hoosier Heartland accepting Rensselaer, Benton Central, Tipton or LCC.  

You’re right, none of what I suggested will ever happen.  The eastern schools probably wouldn’t want Tipton.  The western schools would most likely prefer not to drive to BC and Rensselaer.  I don’t think any of the schools would be willing to bring in Central Catholic.

1 hour ago, superjay said:

Just take Frankfort.

Frankfort just announced they are starting a new, yet to be named conference with WeBo, North Put, and the Montgomery County schools.

I posted this on another forum:

There would be some long drives, but arranging travel partners to limit the number of long trips in a season could help minimize the fuel costs.

Hoosier Conference
Danville 778
Hamilton Heights 710
Lebanon 1027
Logansport 1214
Tri-West 613 
Twin Lakes 674
West Lafayette 730
Western 819

All of these schools are 3A or 4A in football, and when the change to the enrollment based classifications passes, all of these schools will be in 3A for basketball, volleyball, baseball, and softball.

The Hoosier Heartland could then take the smaller members of the Hoosier and expand to 12 schools with 2 divisions like this:

Heartland West
Benton Central 508
Rensselaer Central 468
Delphi 405
Clinton Prairie 347
Carroll (Flora) 346
Lafayette Central Catholic 294

Heartland East
Eastern (Greentown) 464
Tipton 439
Taylor 373
Sheridan 324
Clinton Central 268
Tri Central 236

Rossville goes to the Midwest Conference.

Midwest
North Newton 343
Rossville 273
North White 266
Faith Christian 245
South Newton 242
Tri-County 225
West Central 203
Frontier 198
DeMotte Christian 108

7 hours ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

WCGrad92, you likely know the WIC far better than I do, what are they likely to do should NP, and later SP and Greencastle, make that move? I'm not sure how many teams are in the WIC, so are they likely to look to add someone? Stay pat?

Just my opinion, but they could go with 9 members (Brown County, Cascade, Cloverdale, Edgewood, Indian Creek, Northview, Owen Valley, Sullivan, West Vigo) and play 8 conference games in football plus 1 non-conference game.  9 is not ideal for sports like wrestling, track, etc. with conference events that are better suited to 8 members.  Maybe they convince Linton to be a 10th member in football and basketball, but that still doesn’t help the other sports.

6 hours ago, CoachShanley said:

HHS enrollment growth or the highly competitive games dating back to 2017 had absolutely nothing to do with why we are where we are today. 

7 hours ago, Boilernation said:

The irony in that NCC meeting that resulted in Harrison/McCutcheon getting the boot is the remaining members go from seeing Harrison dominate to it now being Jeff or Kokomo. 

This is the exact reason Jeff and Kokomo voted Harrison out.  They saw the opportunity to be the dominant school with the Raiders out of the way.

6 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I think it is time for Penn and Elkhart to move on from the NIC.  Elkhart more than likely finds a home in the NLC and Penn either goes independent or Joins the Duneland.  Playing Riley and Washington again does nothing for the schedules of either team.  Washington and Riley do not want to play either school.  Good luck to Jimtown, Glenn and Bremen.  While Penn never saw you on the field it was nice having you all.

I know the NLC would never want this, but if Plymouth left and they kicked Wawasee to the curb, I think a conference of:

Mishawaka, Penn, Elkhart, Northridge, Concord, Northwood and Warsaw would be very fun schedule.

In my post on the topic of Harrison and McCutcheon being booted from the NCC, I proposed a plan to expand that conference and include a blend of the current members with some slightly smaller schools within the NCC footprint.  I’m applying that same thought to the NIC and NLC, which would be to combine them and split into 2 regions (East and West), each with two divisions (Large and Small).   Something like this, with enrollments from the fall 2022 count day included.

East Region, Large Division (EL):

Elkhart 3302

Goshen 1981

Concord 1775

Northridge 1389

East Region, Small Division (ES):

Plymouth 1076

Northwood 917

Wawasee 906

Mishawaka Marian 698

West Region, Large Division (WL):

Penn 3401

Warsaw 2096

South Bend Adams 1976

Mishawaka 1463

West Region, Small Division (WS):

South Bend Riley 992

South Bend Washington 834

South Bend Saint Joseph 819

New Prairie 978

In football, each school plays the 3 in their division, 2 from the other division of schools their size, and 1 from each of the 2 divisions of schools a different size.  That gives each school 7 conference games.  It also allows them to preserve some long-time rivalries and still play 2 non-conference games against opponents of their choice.  In basketball, each team plays everyone in their region (east/west) and the 4 schools from the opposite side of the conference who play in the same size-based division.  So using Penn as an example, this could be their football schedule, not necessarily in this order.

Valparaiso

Cathedral

Mishawaka (WL 1)

Warsaw (WL 2)

South Bend Adams (WL 3)

Elkhart (EL 1)

Northridge (EL 2)

Northwood (ES)

New Prairie (WS)

Elkhart could then have a schedule like this:

Hammond Morton

Lake Central

Concord (EL 1)

Goshen (EL 2)

Northridge (EL 3)

Penn (WL 1)

Warsaw (WL 2)

Mishawaka Marian (ES)

South Bend St. Joseph (WS)

This is just as unlikely to happen as my suggestion for the NCC.

I wonder if they will try to work the name Clay into the name of the charter school that will eventually open on that campus.  Career Academy High School will probably get quite a few more requests to enroll in the next few years.

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

I'm not so sure, outside of the general scheduling headache, that Harrison wouldn't have eventually been driven to look for some alternative to the NCC ... at least for football.  Even with Large Division setups, Harrison's not getting ready for 6A play with the East Region crowd and, potentially, even part of the West Region.  Kokomo and McCutcheon were somewhat competitive with Harrison last around 2017.  Even with a seeming recent Kokomo ascendancy, there's been a similar Harrison ascendancy.  The addition of West Lafayette, albeit to the small division group, would be beneficial to Harrison, but they'd only get them roughly half of the seasons.  There's nothing in East Large to help and I'm not sure there's much on that East Small that helps out either. 

While I think the mix that you suggest is better for the NCC in general, I'm not sure that, realistically, Harrison wasn't going to need to search for an alternative conference lineup to avoid being perpetually relegated to 10-game seasons.

You’re right, with Harrison’s growth, my suggested conference additions would probably be a short-term fix that prolongs the conference for another 5-10 years.  I don’t think rotating those cross-division and cross-region games would be a requirement.  Harrison’s schedule could have been something like this:

Roncalli

Crown Point

West Lafayette

Lebanon

Lafayette Jeff

Mississinewa

McCutcheon

Kokomo

Marion

I think this would have been better than the schedule they’ve had in the current NCC.  Other schools could have benefitted from the expanded conference as well, like West Lafayette.  A schedule for West Side could have looked like this:

Central Catholic

Rensselaer Central

Harrison

Lafayette Jeff

Western

Marion

Lebanon

Logansport

Yorktown

5 hours ago, Muda69 said:

No room for Frankfort in this new NCC? IIRC they were a charter member of the NCC, and have a higher enrollment than any other school in your Small Divisions other than Lebanon and Logansport.

 

Sure, this is all just a fantasy anyway, so let the Puppies come on over to the Conference of Voting Out Champions.

If this ever had a chance of happening, Frankfort could be a candidate for the West Small division.  Inevitably, at least one of the schools I suggested for membership would not join.  Western and Mississinewa both like playing in conferences of much smaller schools and probably wouldn’t leave their current status as a big fish in a small pond.  Frankfort could be an alternate choice in the West Small division, and Hamilton Heights for the East Small division instead of the River Rats.

Jeff fits competitively in the NCC in most sports.  They will ignore the travel time and abandon their Tippecanoe County neighbors because they see the opportunity to be the top dog in the NCC for football.  They will compete just fine in basketball and most other sports.  

Harrison was the only true target of this move.  Jeff was on board with it because they don’t like that Harrison has leap frogged them in every sport including boys basketball and football.  McCutcheon hasn’t and would honestly be a good fit to stay in the NCC.  I think the NCC schools even asked McCutcheon to stay but they were loyal to their district sibling.

The problem for Harrison and McCutcheon is that they want to be a package deal, but there aren’t many schools that would want both of them in their conference.  Harrison’s enrollment has grown at a faster rate than McCutcheon’s and their athletic programs are stronger across the board.  McCutcheon might struggle in some conferences that would take Harrison, but Harrison may not get much competition in conferences that are a better fit for McCutcheon.

In my opinion, this could have been avoided by taking a more progressive approach.  Expand the conference to include a blend of the current members and some slightly smaller schools within the NCC footprint.  Conference championships really don’t mean anything, they are just used to keep some people quiet when a team underachieves in the state tournament.  “Well, we did win conference….”  Anyway, my thought would be to add several schools to get to 16 members.  Split into 2 regions (East and West), each with two divisions (Large and Small).   Like this, with enrollments from the fall 2022 count day included.

East Region, Large Division:

Anderson 1790

Marion 1041

Muncie Central 1326

Richmond 1317

East Region, Small Division:

Delta 786

Mississinewa 791

New Castle 836

Yorktown 791

West Region, Large Division:

Harrison 2136

Kokomo 1497

Lafayette Jeff 2113

McCutcheon 1825

West Region, Small Division:

Lebanon 1027

Logansport 1241

Western 819

West Lafayette 730

In football, each school plays the 3 in their division, 2 from the other division in their region, and 1 from each of the 2 divisions on the opposite side of the conference.  That gives each school 7 conference games.  It also allows them to preserve some long-time rivalries and still play 2 non-conference games against opponents of their choice.  In basketball, each team plays everyone in their region (east/west) and the 4 schools from the opposite side of the conference who play in the same size-based division.  So using Harrison as an example, they would play their division (Jeff, McCutcheon, Kokomo), region (Lebanon, Logan, Western, West Lafayette), and the East Large schools (Anderson, Marion, Muncie Central, Richmond).  New Castle would play their division (Delta, Mississinewa, Yorktown), region (Anderson, Marion, Muncie Central, Richmond), and the West Small schools (Lebanon, Logan, Western, West Lafayette).  I think this would serve a lot of the interests of all schools in the expanded NCC.  The toothpaste is already out of the tube though, and many of these schools would not go for this anyway.

So where do they go?  I don’t have a clue.  Conference Indiana might make sense if it wasn’t so far to travel for the current members.  Adding Harrison and McCutcheon would bring the conference to 8 members, which is ideal.  It also has a mix of schools that would fit the competitive level of McCutcheon (Southport, THN, THS) and schools that would compete better with Harrison (BL North, BL South, and CN).  Those schools probably won’t even consider adding Harrison and McCutcheon due to travel, and the current members seem to be looking for other places to go already.  Another possibility is to partner with the Indy parochial schools in the Circle City Conference.  If they look north, they would fit nicely in the Duneland. Travel would be a concern with the added factor of time zone changes, and the Duneland schools probably have no desire to expand.  The Mid-State would be ok also, but like the Duneland, I don’t think they want more than 8 members.

3 hours ago, npcougar15 said:

Conference 1: Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, Mishawaka, Goshen, Adams, Riley, Washington = 8 public schools that make up the biggest urban "citys" in the Michiana area. You keep some natural rivals. Get Warsaw playing with the big boys. The South Bend schools are currently a liability any place you put them. But with Clay closing enrollment will go up in the other 3, hopefully with improvement on the field could get SB going on a different path.

 

Conference 2: Northwood, Northridge, Concord, New Prairie, St. Joe, Marian, Plymouth, Jimtown = 6 community based mid-sized schools with solid athletics across the board with very good fan support. Then you have the 2 privates that fit the same profile and that's a solid 8 team conference right there. 

 

Conference 3: Laville, Rochester, Bremen, Tippy Valley, Knox, Glenn, Wawasee, Fairfield = 8 Publics in that 2A-3A range. Yes, Wawasee would be by far the biggest school but this is where they fit athletically. That conference screams parity right there.

 

Nearly impossible for this to happen, but this would be an ideal scenario for the Michiana area to stabilize these conferences. Would be awesome to see something like this come to fruition. with 8 team conferences that still gives schools opportunities to play each other if they are in different conferences (Concord vs. Elkhart, Jimtown vs. Bremen, Bremen vs. Plymouth, Marian vs. Mishawaka, etc.)

Swap Wawasee (enrollment just over 900) with Jimtown (enrollment 540) and this looks pretty good.