Bobref

42 minutes ago, troyfan said:

2:57 left in the 4q

I checked, and neither Lawrenceburg nor Batesville has shared the video with the IFOA yet. That’s not uncommon. Hopefully, tomorrow.

39 minutes ago, troyfan said:

In real-time this play looks to be a catch and first down at the 15.  But when you slow it down and look closely, the receiver lost control of the ball at impact and didn't re-gain control until the 16-17 yardline.  The official's judgement was a catch on the 17.... see still frames below.

             

I know this doesn't make my friends in Lburg happy, but it truly was the right call.  

Now the ending of this game....maybe a whole different story. Not sure what the HS rules are for the clock stoppage at change of possessions. QB knelt on 4th down with 1.7 on the clock, but officials called game over.  Should the other team get one play with at 1-sec on the clock?

 

Can you tell me at what point in the game the pass play occurred? I’d like to look at the Hudl video. The video I saw was of very poor quality.

1 hour ago, WolvesOnTheProwl said:

Might be playing himself into leaving for the draft after this year!!

Now this is a case where the judicious use of NIL could really make a difference. Safety is among the lowest paid positions in the NFL. A sweet NIL deal could induce him to stay another year.

15 minutes ago, dazed and confused said:

Okay...what I dont know is how far inbound does the catch have to be to call it a completion ? Nothing else changes !

If he doesn’t get a foot down, it’s incomplete. The only exception is if the defensive player actually carries the receiver out of bounds, so that his progress was clearly stopped in the field of play. 

1 hour ago, dazed and confused said:

What about receiver clearly catches ball in air inside the out of bounds but is driven out of bounds before feet come down in bounds ?

Incomplete pass. 

7 hours ago, TheLip2 said:

 

Thanks, Bobref. I wasn't sure. I was almost certain that was the rule at other levels, but I know there are often differences in high school rules. 

Context:

The ball was spotted at the 17yd line. The line to gain was the 16yd line. It was 4th down with maybe 3min remaining in the 4th quarter. The possessing team was down 6 points. 

This type of play is a favorite on officiating quizzes, although the play situation usually has the receiver going airborne in the end zone, catching the ball, and then he is driven back into the field of play and goes to the ground at the 2 yd. line. That’s a TD because the furthest point of the ball at the time of the contact was in the end zone. Same thing here. 

What game was this?

The foremost point of the ball at the time the receiver possesses it would be the spot here, since the receiver was contacted right at the time of the catch, and driven back. Here, it looks like between the 15 and 14 yd. lines.

2 hours ago, temptation said:

If the Wolverines run the table without "sign guy" including convincing wins over PSU and OSU what's that say?

It says they were stupid for cheating when they didn’t have to.

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

Harbaugh should have pulled the back to the NFL lever long ago.

Why? He has a legitimate shot at the big prize this year, which would only enhance his bargaining power with the NFL. And the NFL people will care less if the NCAA says he broke their stupid rules.

1 minute ago, FinePrint said:

The Knox / West Noble game is the only one that should have any drama.  Interesting that we're all picking Knox.  Is that because we're all HNAC homers?  Or is Knox really that much of a favorite?

With Knox at home, they are about an 8-9 pt. favorite, according to Sagarin.

38 minutes ago, CountryClubCowboy3 said:

Like when them dawgz were driving, and knelt on the five!

Victory margin of 10 instead of three.

That’s just good coaching. I officiated a game where a highly regarded coach decided a 6 pt. victory over a winless opponent was not good enough, and scored a TD with less than a minute remaining to go up by 13, instead of kneeling it out. Subsequent kickoff returned for a TD, followed by recovered onside kick and completed Hail Mary for the TD that won it. Turned a 6 pt. victory into a 1 pt. loss. It happens.

At this point, the only question seems to be whose heads are going to roll.

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-tcu-knew-of-michigans-sign-stealing-scheme-prior-to-cfp-game-used-dummy-signals-to-dupe-wolverines-224848698.html

Sources: TCU knew of Michigan's sign-stealing scheme prior to CFP game, used 'dummy signals' to dupe Wolverines

During TCU’s game against Michigan in last year’s College Football Playoff semifinal, trickery was afoot.

TCU coaches, having gained information on Michigan’s elaborate sign-stealing scheme, changed many of their play-call signals before kickoff. However, head coach Sonny Dykes and the Horned Frogs staff had grander ideas than just changing signals.

They pulled a fast one on the Wolverines.

They mixed in new play-call signals with old ones, using what one TCU staff member described as “dummy signals” in an effort to trick the UM staff. The dummy signals were old play-calls that had since been changed. Players were told to ignore the dummy signals and run the original play as called with the new signals.

“Sometimes we froze a play before the snap,” said one TCU coach. “We’d call a play and then we’d signal in another play with an old signal but we told players to run the original play.”

TCU, a 7.5-point underdog, beat Michigan 51-45 in that semifinal clash in the Fiesta Bowl, stunning much of the college football world in a victory that propelled Dykes’ team to the national championship game against Georgia. The Horned Frogs lost that game, 65-7, but their semifinal victory stands as one of the more incredible upsets in the history of the College Football Playoff — and, now, serves as another wrinkle in what’s evolved into the college game’s version of Deflategate.

A week into the saga, most know the details by now: A now-suspended Michigan analyst, Connor Stalions, purchased tickets to more than 40 college football games in an effort to record opponents’ signals in what has been unearthed as an elaborate, three-year scheme that has rocked the sport. In news first reported by Yahoo Sports last Thursday, the NCAA is investigating the program for a violation of the association’s rules around in-person scouting.

Over the last seven days, more news connected to the case has trickled out from various media outlets.

Most recently, the Washington Post reported Wednesday that an outside investigative firm first tipped off the NCAA last week to Michigan’s sign-stealing scheme, presenting officials with documents uncovered from computers maintained and accessed by UM coaches that outlined the system, including travel schedules and expenses for future trips.

On Thursday, the Associated Press reported that NCAA investigators were on campus at Michigan gathering information for the probe. No evidence has emerged either implicating coach Jim Harbaugh directly or showing he had knowledge of Michigan's in-person scouting operation, sources tell Yahoo Sports. The NCAA investigation is still ongoing.

The breadth of the scheme appears to be massive. Stalions purchased tickets to games at 12 of 13 Big Ten schools for a total of 30 games, according to a Monday report from ESPN. At least one of the schools produced in-stadium surveillance video of someone recording the sideline in the seat Stalions booked. He also purchased tickets to games involving CFP contenders like Tennessee, Georgia, Oregon, Alabama and Clemson, as well as the last two SEC championship games, Yahoo Sports reported Tuesday.

In one instance, Stalions bought a ticket to Tennessee’s game against Kentucky last season in view of the Volunteers’ sideline. Three minutes after the purchase, he transferred the ticket, presumably, to an associate or friend designated to record the game.

At TCU, the school has found no evidence that Stalions purchased a ticket to a home game last season, but there were ample opportunities to record the Horned Frogs in road games or in the Big 12 championship against Kansas State.

Not long after the CFP unveiled the 2022 semifinal matchups — Georgia vs. Ohio State and TCU vs. Michigan — the Horned Frogs staff began receiving phone calls from coaches across the country about what was a well-known fact in the Big Ten coaching community: that Michigan had an elaborate sign-stealing system.

Many of those on the TCU staff were unaware before the calls. Coaches from several Big Ten schools, including Ohio State, informed TCU coaches of the scheme.

“Literally everybody we talked to knew,” said one TCU coach. “They’d say, ‘Just so you know, they steal your signals and they’re going to have everything so you better change them.’”

One coach told the staff that Michigan “has the most elaborate signal-stealing in the history of the world.”

TCU changed some of the signals. More interesting, though, is that they purposely used the old signals to trick the Wolverines — a move not-so-surprising given the savvy nature of their head coach. Dykes is a protégé of Mike Leach, a coach known for poking fun at those who steal signals. In one game while coach at Washington State, Leach learned that the coach of his team’s next opponent, Arizona State's Todd Graham, was notorious for stealing signals. During the game against ASU, Leach aggressively flashed signals toward Graham in a hilarious moment that’s made the rounds on social media over the last few days.

Plenty of folks see much of Leach in Dykes. And so why not give the Wolverines some of their own medicine?

Dykes and staff crafted a game plan that, at least in part, used the dummy signals to fool coach Harbaugh and signaler Stalions. TCU scored first-half touchdowns on drives of 10 plays for 83 yards and 12 plays for 76 yards. The Frogs scored more points on Michigan than any team that season (51), eclipsing the next highest scoring opponent by 24 points.

“The guy [Stalions] was wrong a couple of times,” one TCU staff member said. “We rewatched the TV version of the game. You can see him standing next to the defensive coordinator. He tells something to the coordinator and he points in the air to mean pass. You can see the playsheet he’s holding with our hand signs on them.”

TCU did a variety of measures to avoid the issue beyond changing some signs. The staff purposely signaled in plays late as to not leave enough time for Stalions to relay the signal to coaches.

“There are some times in the game that they still got us,” a TCU staff member said, “especially on short-yardage.”

Signal-stealing is not against NCAA rules. However, the association prohibits coaches or staff members scouting games of upcoming opponents in person — a near 30-year-old rule. Stealing an opponent’s signals during a game or from the television broadcast is not against NCAA rules. In fact, it’s quite common in college football.

Through history, plenty of opposing coaches have been caught by rival schools scouting games, spring games or practices, yet many of them go unpublicized and are quietly dealt with by the NCAA.

The Michigan case represents the largest scale sign-stealing scheme ever publicized in the recent history of college sports. It’s no surprise that the system eventually leaked because of its sheer size and foolish moves.

Stalions bought tickets in his own name and Michigan staff members used large white playsheets during games on the sideline that showed the opposing team’s hand signals in black — still shots of which have made their way across the internet.

Big Ten coaches caught on long ago.

As Yahoo Sports reported last week, news of the sign-stealing spread enough that multiple Michigan opponents this season dropped their signaling and used wristbands for much of the offensive play-calling during the game against the Wolverines.

“We heard they had a guy pick plays pretty good and had all this information from not your typical ways of getting the signals,” a Big Ten staff member said. “We get into the game and it’s the second quarter. I see him across the field and he’s checking his 11x17 sheet.”

The sign-stealing dates back to at least 2021, according to sources. The Wolverines have won 33 of their last 36 games dating back to that season. Michigan is 8-0 and ranked No. 2 this season and is on a bye this week before a home game against Purdue on Nov. 4.

A timeline for the NCAA’s investigation is unclear. It only started last week. NCAA inquiries such as this often extend months, if not years, and feature an even

Whether there was any wrongdoing on Harbaugh’s part or not, is one of the likely consequences of the negative publicity and hassle of investigation Harbaugh to the NFL next season?

1 hour ago, BTF said:

That's Rodney's genius. 

Or his pathology. Same difference.

Once again … I find myself at a loss for words.

3 hours ago, US31 said:

Does a tipped ball negate defensive holding on a reciever?  

No.

1 hour ago, cloudofdust said:

This brings up a question. Is there such thing as "uncatchable" in HS. I've heard coaches plead for no DPI due to a ball being thrown to far, to high or out of bounds.

The general reasoning is, that is not a thing in HS and the DPI sticks.

I've just assumed the official uses their best judgement to determine whether or not the contact would have prevented them from making an attempt and if the ball is that far out the flag stays tucked.

Now, obviously, if a C tackles a WR running down field that's a flag no matter what.

There is no explicit “uncatchable” exception in the NF code as appears in the rules at other levels. Some people - even a few officials - believe that this means you should call DPI on a ball that is clearly not catchable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The prohibition against pass interference is designed to give the receiver an unimpeded opportunity to catch the football. If he can’t catch it because it’s overthrown, or out of bounds, then he has not been deprived of that opportunity. Pass interference should not be called when the pass is uncatchable.

10 minutes ago, mumm6866 said:

Mmm… seems like I explained this in my post that (had grammatical errors as you say)… even Laville AD said the refs messed up the last 1:35 but it doesn’t matter as Laville won and Andrean didn’t.. on to next week 

Plenty of blame to go around, which is usually the case when things get screwed up. The R should not have blown the whistle. The LaVille QB should have taken a knee when he told the R he was going to. Andrean coaching staff should have known the correct down. It’s high school football.

Did some investigating and watched the Hudl video. Here’s what happened in the last couple minutes of the Andrean - LaVille game:

LaVille recovered Andrean onside kick, and had 1st down with 1:35 remaining. On the 1st play, the QB takes a knee immediately. On 2nd down, the Referee blows an inadvertent whistle. This was caused by the LaVille QB telling the R he was going to take a knee, and then taking the snap and backpedaling several steps before he goes down. This is a bad mistake, no doubt, but under the circumstances, somewhat understandable. But it happens, and any official who tells you they’ve never had an IW is probably lying. LaVille elects to replay the down. So, it’s 2nd down, but Andrean thinks the down counts and it’s 3rd down. This, despite the fact that the officials verbally instructed the box man that it was 2nd down, not 3rd, and the downs marker, which is on the Andrean sideline, is changed to 2nd down. Andrean apparently does not appreciate this. LaVille does another kneel down, then takes a delay penalty. On 3rd down, the LaVille QB runs around a little and then goes down. He does the same thing on 4th down, and runs out the clock.

From my review of the sequence of events, it’s apparent that nothing that the officials did affected the outcome. The crew’s performance over the final 1:35 was not optimal, but the real trouble started when LaVille said they were taking a knee, and did not go down immediately from “Victory” formation(after doing just that on 1st down). This led to the IW, which, in turn caused Andrean to lose count of the downs, despite what the officials said, and what was displayed on the downs marker.

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Staffer suspended…MSU walking their backup QB on to the field between plays to deliver the play call verbally…8th blowout win and largest margin of victory this season.

Yawn.

Sparty is a true dumpster fire. It will be interesting to see how that coaching situation shakes out.

I’d say the evidence is more than circumstantial. 🤣😂😅

4 minutes ago, Julio said:

I thought that when you announce to the refs that you are taking a knee, you had to do so immediately as to not have the defense rush you.  If he ran around then the defense should have been allowed to rush the QB and treat it as an actually play.  I could be wrong, but I believe that is why the offense would let the defense know that they are taking a knee.

Standard practice when the QB tells you he’s going to take a knee is to tell him “Do it immediately and hand me the ball, or I can’t protect you.”

On 10/20/2023 at 9:17 PM, whiteshoes said:

#29 Lakewood (OH) St. Edward (8-1) @ #21 Akron (OH) Archbishop Hoban (8-0)

Eagles have their starting QB back, and head into the playoffs riding the momentum of a 14-7 win on the road at [previously] Ohio #1 ranked Archbishop Hoban. They finish 9-1, only a 2 pt. loss at 10-0 Massillon Washington when they had to go with the backup QB marred their record. Now, on in search of the three-peat.

9 hours ago, gindie said:

What if the contact occurs while the ball is in the air, but before it is tipped?

If the “tip” occurs after the contact that is judged to be interference, strictly speaking, it is theoretically possible to still have DPI. But keep in mind one of the elements of pass interference is that the receiver is prevented from making a play on the ball by the interference. If the “tip” causes the ball to be off target so the receiver could not have made a play on it even without the interference, it’s no foul. Also keep in mind that defensive PI restrictions do not begin until the pass is in the air.

1 hour ago, mumm6866 said:

Uh? Why would the D need to be let know taking a knee? Does the offense tell them hey we are running power right before the run play… never seen or heard of that in my lifetime of playing and watching football 

That is exactly what happens most of the time. The offense notifies the officials that they are taking a knee. The officials let the defense know, in order to minimize the possibility of unsportsmanlike acts. There is even a specific procedure in the officials’ manual on dealing with Victory formation.