Footballking16

So if you support that, why not push that agenda? You understand that under your current proposal, the IHSAA would be hosting a tournament for 64 teams where only TWO have a winning record. 6-2 Frontier and 4-3 Oldenburg are the only two teams of the 64th worst rated Sagarin teams that have a winning record. Who would support that tournament format? That is the ultimate "lets give everybody a trophy". How do you justify that?

Did I say that? Cathedral has already played in the 6A tournament and I fully supported it via the success factor. If you have success in your enrollment-based classification, you should be bumped up. What I have a problem with is telling a school like South Adams who has 369 kids, they now have to compete in a tournament with schools like Penn, Southport, Noblesville, etc. It ain't right.

If you eliminated half the field at the conclusion of the regular season and seeded the tournament this competitive imbalance wouldn't exist. The reason why blowouts are so widespread in the current format is that the best teams knock each other out early and they let teams in who have no business being in.

Cathedral has never played in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment. They currently play in a tournament where the largest school has 800 more students. Cathedral is an outlier in this whole thing. That is why the success factor exists, to promote schools up a class who have sustained success in their enrollment based-class.

He's trying to replicate European soccer. What Muda is not taking into consideration is that when teams are promoted at the professional level, they are allocated more funds to go out and "buy" newer and better players to be able to compete against better teams. That isn't feasible in high school athletics and why a "true system of promotion/relegation" is one of the more profoundly dumb arguments on this site.

I'm not thinking about Cathedral in the least when you talk about promotion and relegation. I'm talking about teams like South Adams who would be forced to play in a tournament with schools 10x their enrollment. That ain't right.

Status quo? Cathedral has been promoted several times lol. Not only that, they've been promoted 2 classes, the only program to have that happen to them. They are still playing up 1 class to their natural enrollment and you haven't heard me complain about it one time. What an outstanding hill to die on Muda.

@Muda69 I take it by your downvote you don't have an actual proposal?

Though I do need a good laugh this morning. What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? You only seem to cite a wikipedia page for European soccer whenever you're asked this question. I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you.

No need Muda

lol

Imagine Muda typing a thread trying to justify promotion/relegation using Sagarin as his basis for measurement while also chiding schools for "running up the score". That my friends is quite the conundrum.

Basketball is completely different than football.

A school with 369 people isn't to be expected to compete with schools that have 10x their enrollement. The goal of high school sports nationwide is to crown champions based on like-size enrollement, not field a tournament that crowns a champion among the 64 worst teams in the state. What is so hard to understand about that? The IHSAA would open themselves up to endless amounts of lawsuits if they orchestrated a tournament in such fashion. Penn playing a team like South Adams is a disaster waiting to happen from an injury perspective.

Yes sorry South Adams, enrollment 369. They would be playing in a state tournament with schools like Penn, Noblesville, Columbus East, Southport, etc under your current proposal. Ya, no thanks.

Because Cathedral CAN compete with those schools and due to the success factor they have to. Chatard or West Lafayette would beat Adams Central by 100 points this year. If Adams Central continues to win, they will be bumped up.

And you think pitting teams with an enrollment differential by 2-3k students is the answer to competitive balance? You're nuts.

That is what I'm getting at, unless at the end of the regular season you put the top 32 Sagarin teams in the top flight, the next top 32 teams in a second flight and so on and so on. If you did it that way you would potentially have a team like Adams Central with an enrollment of ~380 playing against a team like Penn with an enrollment of ~3500. It's nonsense.

Based off what? The prior season success? So if School A with an enrollment of 350 kids has an exceptional senior class that makes it to the state finals and finishes the year rated 68th in Sagarin they could potentially play in a tournament with a school that has 3500 kids the next year? Without the senior class that got them there in the first place? Yeah, good luck.

I know how promotion and relegation works. Unlike professional sports, high schools aren't allocated funds to buy and sell players at the conclusion of each season. What is your proposal?? How do you initially classify teams outside current enrollment? For someone who has been preaching promotion and relegation for several years, you don't seem to have any kind of contingency plan or any idea how it works.

How do you regulate that is what I'm asking? So if you don't win your sectional you move down a class? 1 of Avon/Brownsburg isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me the loser of that game moves down to 5A? 3 of Guerin/Chatard/West Lafayette/Brebuef isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me those 3 teams now move down to 2A? That's how promotion/regulation works? That fixes competitive balance? Pass me what you're having.

Look at comparable scenarios? It’s all about SOS and opponent SOS. Cathedral is ALWAYS a top 5-10 Sagarin rated team because of their schedule. They were 4-5 heading into the postseason last year and still a top 5 Sagarin rated team. This years 3-5 Roncalli team is rated 17th in Sagarin and they’re nowhere near as good as the 02 team and haven’t played a tenth of the schedule the 02 team played. Luers at 2-6 is rated 15th in 2A and it’s all because they play teams outside their class.

They still played by far and away the toughest schedule in 4A. Cathedral was 4-5 going into the postseason last year and still was a top 5 Sagarin rated team the entire year. I would bet any amount of money that a 5-4 Roncalli team in 2002 that played CG, Franklin Central, Chatard, and Cincy Elder was rated in the top half in 4A in Sagarinand would even go so far to say they were top 10. Heck this years Roncalli team who started 0-4 (currently 3-5) is ranked 17th in 4A Sagarin and hasn’t played near the schedule the 02 team played.

In a rating system that accounted for SOS, opponent SOS, W-L record, and opponent W-L most definitely. I’ve seen Cathedral start 0-4, 1-3 on many occasions and they’re always still in the top 10 of Sagarin or Calpreps. Center Grove went 8-1 and reached SS Franklin Central went undefeated during the regular season and lost in the sectional finals. Chatard was an undefeated state champion And Elder was one of the best teams in the entire country and went 14-1 and won the D1 title in Ohio. In fact, the following year Elder was #1 in the country and got blown out by Warren and Desmond Tardy.

I can't speak to the exact year but would have to imagine that Roncalli would have been rated in the top half of 4A in any kind of analytic or advanced rating system even starting 0-4. That's why W-L record would never exclusively be the deciding or mitigating factor.