Footballking16

16 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Look, FootballKing cares in no way what anyone says to refute what he is saying. In his mind, nothing that is said means anything to him that is against his opinion. Period. Doesn’t mean he is right or that I or anyone else agrees with him, he just wants to be right. Fine, live your dream. I will live in reality, which is 100% different than what you are saying. Your scenario will not happen anytime soon. The sport is about the kids who play the game, not you, not me, hell, not even the fans. Guess what? Thousands upon thousands of fans will go to the games and support their teams and the product that is offered. 

Not a single person has brought an argument to the table that brings a constructive thought as to how the regular season takes on any meaning.

I get I’m in the minority for a playoff qualifier, but for the life of me I have zero understanding how anybody can defend how the regular season takes on any kid of real value meaning.

If you support the all-in, that’s great. I get it. But stop with the backwards BS that the regular season has some kind of major connotation. It doesn’t. 

Just now, scarab527 said:

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”

Same boat, same water brother.

I don’t get it.

5 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Oh no, one team isn’t going to get to win the one playoff game they otherwise would have. What an absolute tragedy. How will they ever recover from this great injustice? 

If all you’re judging is postseason success then even with a qualifier you could say the regular season results don’t matter at the end of the day. 

Get off the internet and go get a breath of fresh air. You’ve been posting constantly on this thread for days now and clearly you’re very mad lmao. It really isn’t that big of a deal and you better get used to it because the IHSAA doesn’t seem like they’re going to change it anytime soon. 

Oh no, I had one. Calm down, son. It’ll be alright. 
 

Just show me on the doll where the all-in format hurt you. 

Mad? Nah. Trying to make a difference? Maybe.

I’m a sports fan. Period. The All-in, blind draw is an injustice to competition. You won’t change my mind.

Make it make sense.

8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I mean seriously, two conference champions (Brownsburg and Ben Davis) aren’t going to win a tournament game while two bottom feeder teams (Pike and Avon) are going to play for a sectional championship.

And the regular season (and winning a conference championship) actually has meaning?

GTFOH

@scarab527 I’ll take your non-response as much. You don’t have one. There’s nothing to say. I get it.

Make it make sense.

12 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Good thing no one is making that claim lmao. Keep constructing strawmen so that you can knock them down.

Hope it makes you feel better about yourself. This is getting sad. 

I mean seriously, two conference champions (Brownsburg and Ben Davis) aren’t going to win a tournament game while two bottom feeder teams (Pike and Avon) are going to play for a sectional championship.

And the regular season (and winning a conference championship) actually has meaning?

GTFOH

2 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Good thing no one is making that claim lmao. Keep constructing strawmen so that you can knock them down.

Hope it makes you feel better about yourself. This is getting sad. 

I’ve yet to hear a soundproof argument that regular season results matter.

Better?

53 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

This. If you told any coach or player in the state that regular season games don't mean anything, you'd get laughed out of the room. 

As you should be. 

If you tell your players that going undefeated puts you in the best position to advance in the tournament, you’d be called an absolute liar.

As you should be.

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

I do find the discussion somewhat interesting as I've never seen anything close to a groundswell of support FROM THE PLAYERS about regular season games not meaning anything.  It might be a fan issue, but of the various players that I've known over the years in Indiana, I've not ever heard of complaints about the regular season games not meaning anything.  The smell on the bus?  Check.  The long drive into another timezone? Check.  The small visiting locker room with one working toilet?  Check.  Not getting cheese on the Subway sandwiches on the ride even though their parents paid for cheese?  Check.  Horrible fields? Check.  Too hot?  Check.  Too cold? Check.  Regular season games not meaning something?  Not so much.

At the end of the day, the final score of all 9 regular season games mean absolute ZILCH in regards to the postseason. That is a fact and is irrefutable. 
 

You can take absolute joy in winning a conference championship or beating a huge rival, but at the end of the day and the end of the regular season it means jack squat. Everybody reverts back to 0-0. There’s zero gained advantage by having a better regular season than your peers. It’s a travesty. It happens nowhere else in this country outside IHSAA sanctioned tournaments. What you accomplish in the regular season is meaningless come week 10.

Change my mind.

58 minutes ago, FinePrint said:

Right.  Missing it by 2 places.  Maybe if they beat 2-6 Noblesville this week and the stars align they could still make it!  To @Bobref's point, they would be playing a meaningful regular season game.

Hey, at least someone is catching on.

You’re coachable, I’ll give you that.

5 minutes ago, Tippy said:

It just sounded like you thought that they were using the cluster system in 1979-1980.  Some people like things they way they are and some don't.  You can do whatever you want but its not going to stop blowout games.  There might not be as many blowouts but things like this will still happen.

Tippecanoe Valley 1979

Sectional Championship

67 Central Noble 0

Regional Championship

63 North Judson 6

Blowouts are the very least of my concern when it comes to the all-in. In fact I encourage them until the IHSAA wakes up and says enough is enough.

My issue with the all-in is that it renders the regular season meaningless. In fact it doesn’t even acknowledge it.

2 minutes ago, Tippy said:

They only used the Cluster system in 1983 and 1984.

Did the tournament in 1979 and 1980 actively take 50% of the field at the conclusion of the regular season?

2 minutes ago, FinePrint said:

Coach Curtis to his Warsaw players:  "Boys, we're going to leave our conference next year and beef up our schedule!  We might not win many games, but by golly, we're going to make the playoffs!  So keep your heads up, boys!  Winning 3 games and making the playoffs is a lot better than winning 8 and missing out!"

Is that his response to his team when they inevitably get shellacked after playing their first real competition?

Logical sense says that Penn, Elkhart, and Warsaw need to ditch their current conferences, start their own, and reach out for help. Carroll and Homestead would be good additions, Snider and Dwenger on top of those two would be even better. Playoff qualification or not, this benefits all those schools in the long run when it is time to play real elimination games.

2 minutes ago, CJJL said:

I spent 5 years coaching in Illinois. This is EXACTLY what happened. Great point.

 

And teams that avoid competition (see Elkhart and Penn) run the risk of missing out on the postseason altogether under a rating system that simply measures more than just W-L. Unless every team plays a round robin schedule, comparing W-L record is a highly ineffective way of comparing teams.

Just now, FinePrint said:

So your not really a proponent of winning.  You would prefer that coaches use the Avon model over the Elkhart model.  Tell the kids losing is fine, just as long as you lose to the best teams.

Avon wouldn’t be in a postseason that effectively cuts the field in half at the end of the regular season as they are currently a bottom half Sagarin rated team.

If Warsaw or Elkhart played Avon’s schedule they wouldn’t be 7-1 or 6-2. 
 

What’s your point?

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Lol, you have an answer for everything. 

Well yeah, I was asked a question.

I answered it.

1 minute ago, FinePrint said:

Looking at Sagarin today, there are several teams with winning records (5 or more wins) that would be excluded from the tournament.  That includes Elkhart at 7-1 and Warsaw at 6-2.  There are also several teams with 3 or fewer wins that would be included over some of the 5-6 win teams.  

What are you going to tell the Lions and the Tigers, @Footballking16?

I’d tell Elkhart and Warsaw to beef up their schedules.
 

Elkhart has the second easiest schedule of any 6A team in the state (and lost to the single 6A opponent they’ve played) while Warsaw hasn’t played a single 6A opponent yet.

41 minutes ago, Tippy said:

In 1979 and 1980 South Bend St. Joe went 10-0 both years and did not make the cut.

A qualifying format that cuts the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season would have included both the 1979 and 1980 SB St Joe’s team.

6 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Uh right, using your theory where bad teams shouldn’t even have the chance to make the postseason you have yet again been proven wrong. That is your whole argument. Neither Villanova or NC State would have qualified for the Big Dance without winning a conference tournament they everyone automatically qualified for regardless of their record. Make another bogus argument…

You said every team makes the NCAAT. You are 100% wrong in that regard. The teams that qualify for the NCAAT do so in part due to regular season success. The all-in format doesn’t reward regular season success, let alone recognize it. You’re completely contradicting yourself and furthering my point. You look foolish in the process as well.

Keep trying.

6 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Stop using logic, the almighty FootballKing does not understand it

So it’s Cluster system or all-in? There’s no in-between? 50% inclusion is a compromise of both two terrible postseason formats. Solid analogy.

Again, keep trying.

2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Those are individuals who are seeded, not the team. Apples to oranges comparing to football.

I never said anything about wrestling team state, you did.

If the IHSAA can seed individual wrestlers in 14 different weight classes it can certainly do it for 6 football classes.

12 minutes ago, ragdoll said:

A number of very bad teams have won a sectional. 

Well yeah when there are entire sectionals comprised of very bad teams there does have to be an eventual winner. 

That's how single elimination tournaments typically work. 

11 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Incorrect. Only 1 wrestling event in the state seeds teams. That is Team State.

Sectionals are most definitely seeded and you're placed in the following round based on your results from the previous round. Sectional 1 winner faces sectional 2 4th place finisher, etc and so on and so on until you get to the state finals. 

7 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

isnt this the case with most IHSAA sports??  Blind draws, all in?  Isn't this discussion really bigger than football?

Wrestling is the only IHSAA sport that I'm aware of that proportionally seeds sectionals, regionals, semi-state, and State. And it's also, at least in my opinion, the most exciting tournament of any sport. I've never wrestled in my life, and outside football, its the only IHSAA tournament I keep tabs.

What I was saying, is that if you go to any other sport at any level (high school, college, professional outside of IHSAA) you will never find another postseason format that just blindly disregards the regular season. Hell we used to have to qualify for the postseason back in CYO days. 

8 minutes ago, jets said:

I can't/nor do I want to go through all 6 pages of this thread, but in my skimming of the material I think something gets over-looked and overshadowed by the "qualifying" people. 

Seeding DOES NOT have to equal a qualifying process. YOU CAN STILL HAVE AN ALL-IN, SEEDED sectional! 

It really is THAT SIMPLE and, IMO, improves the tournament greatly and brings us towards the 21st century. 

It gives value to a good regular season (even if it is not perfect) and its not that hard. Wrestling coaches have been figuring it out for years. 

As a qualifier proponent I would 100% back an all-in format that truly seeded each sectional 1-4 or 1-8, as it would eventually be the precursor to a qualifying format. The IHSAA would have zero leg to stand on in justifying large scale, state-wide blowouts in every single sectional. 

But we all know this won't happen because of the above-mentioned.

1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

Seeding the tournament would dramatically increase the number of these blowout games.

Good.

The next step would be to then implement a qualifying format. If Hammond Noll has to lose 100-0 at the expense of keeping teams like Ben Davis and Brownsburg on opposite ends of the bracket then so be it. People in charge need to wake up. 

Here is how archaic the all-in format is.

Ben Davis is going to win the MIC outright after going 5-0 when they inevitably beat North Central by 40+ points. Ben Davis' reward for winning arguably the 2nd toughest conference in the state is a date with the #1 ranked team in Indiana, Brownsburg, in the first round. That same North Central team who went 0-9 in the regular season has an easier first round sectional matchup than Ben Davis, a team who went undefeated in conference play and won the conference outright.

Or how about this. Brownsburg and HSE are going to finish 1-2 in the HCC, the toughest conference in the state. Brownsburg is going to play Ben Davis, a top 10 rated Sagarin team. Meanwhile, Avon who is currently 1-7 and in last place of said conference draws 1-8 Pike. How on Earth does that happen? Anyone who thinks that is acceptable or seriously thinks the regular season has true, inherent meaning needs their heads examined. 

PLEASE MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!

1 minute ago, Komets2727 said:

The NCAA men’s basketball tournament let’s everyone in postseason play and is widely regarded as the best tournament in all of sports,March Madness!!! There have been countless upsets every year by teams that have stunk it up during the regular season only to make great runs in their conference tournament and even win a national title. Villanova and North Carolina State easily come to mind to start and every year there are other teams that make this tournament great. And yes, had not Villanova and NC State not won their conference tourney they would NOT made the field… Carry on

Uh wrong.

The NCAAT invites, ie have to qualify, 68 teams out of 350 some D1 basketball teams. 

Villanova and NC State EARNED their right to play in the NCAAT.

Keep trying.