Bash Riprock

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

The one I saw (don't remember helmet coming off or anyone getting bloodied) would have been a late hit and not roughing since it was a dead ball. No difference in enforcement so the same result. Based on where it happened I'm guessing nobody had a view of it. Just like when a player gets up from a pile and claims they got punched in the tenders at the bottom of the pile. I thank them for thinking I have amazing super powers to see through bodies.

Seriously though...you seem to have an interest in understanding this better so I would encourage you to consider officiating. It really is a great avocation. You the team aspect of working with your crew mates and other officials. You are an important part of the game with a goal of applying consistent judgement of all calls throughout. Fine tuning your pre-snap routine, identifying and correctly reading your keys at the snap, progressing through the play both in movement and focus so you are looking at where you need to look, slowing down each play aa they happen to make sure you saw what you thought you saw, making many decisions during the play (legality at the snap, foul/no foul, in bounds/out of bounds, catch/no catch, fumble down, spot, and many others). Each play only lasts 5-7 seconds, but you may have made 10 different judgements in that time. Communication with players and coaches between plays. Communication with your crew mates. All factors going into the quality of your work. Forgetting the last play if you think you missed something. Being better on the next play. The camaraderie before and after the game with your crew. We often call each other on the way home to compare how our games go. Many officials meet at a local restaurant for dinner after the game as well.

His helmet didn't come completely off, but went half way up his head.  (doesn't show in this video)  Looked impressive with his bloody lip.  I stand corrected as the play does not look late...but it was a clear blow to his head.  Given that Purdy was in the concussion protocol earlier this season, would hope there would be focus on this type of hit.  Can't tell from the video where the official was...perhaps none could see, especially the referee.

Not sure about the officiating....a few years back hung up the coaching whistle, but still stay involved with the running of youth leagues.  Definitely still involved with the game.  But you've given me something to think about for sure.

15 minutes ago, temptation said:

Just hope the $13 million Buckeyes get dragged for their 2024 non conference schedule the same way Michigan was in 2023…

I haven't even looked...it must be weak....

4 hours ago, temptation said:

Uh...over.  I'd set it at 8.5 right now with the right to change my mind after the spring portal.

Five tough games (vs Texas, vs Oregon, vs USC, @ Washington, @ Ohio State) and to miss the over on 7.5 means they go 0-5...just don't see it.

I guess Fresno could be a sneaky one too.

I will stick with 9-3 for now.

Does help to have Texas, USC and Oregon at home.  Road games in Columbus and Bloomington will test their mental strength, game planning and on the field execution......😉

One tough schedule.....

22 hours ago, JustRules said:

I'm just saying the number of missed called you think you see and the number of missed calls that actually happen are very different numbers. If they weren't you would not be very critical of the work the NFL officials are doing. All your early justifications were based on the observations of coaches, players and announcers. I never said they didn't understand the rules. I'm saying they don't understand them nearly as well as they think they do. But they are the ones that fans take as Gospel so that misunderstanding gets taken as truth. And when an official then tries to explain the rules or a call they get dismissed because it's counter to what this coach or player or announcer said.

Looking back at your initial comments on this topic you were more focused on the influence missed calls have on a game. They may to some extent and some will appear to have a bigger impact depending on the timing. But ultimately there are several things over the course of the game that have an impact and no one play or call determines the outcome of the game. The Lions didn't lose only because Coach Campbell decided to go for it twice on 4th down rather than kick FGs. The great catch off the defender's face mask and fumble on the subsequent drive also played pretty big roles. The receiver catches the pass on the 1st 4th down play and there may have been a very different outcome. But the article that started all this was how much Shawn Smith's crew favored the visiting team, and I pointed out the fallacy of that argument. But people seem to think the crew has any influence in the outcome of the game. There are so many things over the course of the game that do that.

No disagreement and I didn't insinuate the non call with the late hit to the hit to Purdy's head while he was on the ground had any impact to the game.  But Blandino felt (and I agree) that it should have been a foul.  It was late and it was an agregious hit to the QB's head that ripped his helmet half off his head and bloodied his mouth.  This official either missed the hit, or didn't feel it was a foul.  I absolutely believe there would be variability across the league with officials as many (if not the majority) would have thrown the flag for roughing the QB.  (or for the late hit) I can't help from wondering if this same play had been flagged had it been Pat Mahomes instead of Purdy as I do believe "superstars" do receive a certin "benefit of the doubt".  You probably don't agree with me on the latter, but I absolutely believe there is varability across the league at times depending who is involved.  This is something discussed in length with NBA officiating.

I am not anti-officials.  I think their efforts are outstanding performing an incredibly difficult job.  I am old school, but personally, I'd like to see less replay reviews for calls.  I just believe that since we are involving human beings, errors will and do occur...with coaches, players and officials...and that's ok.  Its why they are all evaluated and have differing degress of success and longevity.  

4 hours ago, Bobref said:

Which, of course, I never said or implied, but you seem to have inferred.

ok..fair enough...but you did infer that if you haven't officiated.......

Perhaps much of what I was responding to was this comment from Just Rules.  I don't disagree that there are "some" coaches and players that don't always understand the rules....but I think its a subset and don't agree with a generalization as written below.

15 hours ago, Bobref said:

Now you’re just resorting to putting words in my mouth. I’m confident many coaches have a good understanding of many of the rules of football. It’s not their job to have the nuanced understanding of the rules and their practical application that officials do. So,they don’t. Nothing surprising about it.

I understood your statement...and the example that you used about not coaching.  While I understand an official may understand the interpretation and applicability of the rules as a "higher level", I don't agree that coaches and players are ignorant to the rules. especially at the NFL level.   

Officials are not equal in terms of their craft and while I absolutely agree they get the vast majority of calls correct, they are human and they do make errors. Thus the application of replays overturning calls at the collegiate and professional levels.

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

I never said they were perfect. There are going to be a couple calls each game that could have or should have been called differently. There are 160-180 plays per game. If there are 2-3 plays with incorrect calls That's a 98% accuracy rate. That's pretty amazing! The one I saw was I believe was on the other game and Steratore was the rules expert. The QB had scrambled and tackled downfield in the middle of other players. The only view that could likely see that hit was the overhead camera they showed. I don't believe any official would have had a view of that hit. So while they get a downgrade for not calling it, there was nothing they could have done differently to see it. But trying to get replay involved in those kinds of plays would cause more problems than solve as proven by the PI experiment a couple years ago. There are certain types of calls we need to leave with the officials on the field and accept a 98% accuracy rate.

None of this changes the original point of our discussion. As much as you think you understand the rules, you don't know them as well as you think you do. The same is true for coaches and players and TV analysts. They will never have a perfect game, but the number of errors is much smaller than you realize. Since you are a former player and coach I assume you aren't doing either now. I would strongly encourage you to contact some local officials and join us. You may find out how fun and challenging this avocation is. You'll also find out how little you previously understood the rules. They are more complex than you realize but not something you can't easily learn with time and experience. The latter part is critical though because it takes repetition and study to be able to see the nuance of each call. And this goes well beyond fouls and non-fouls. That's a small portion of what we are looking at and judging on every play.

Not sure where your statistics come from, but I never said officials have high error rates.  Never said officiating is easy.

I think its clear I don't understand the rules....nor any coach or player.....only officials.......

By the way, I have some good friends that are officials at the collegiate level....a couple of them played Power 5 football....one of them has a Super Bowl ring.  While they would agree with some of what you state....they are at a very different place in terms of dismissing the knowledge of players and coaches about the rules.

Bottom line, officials are graded for a reason...and like any other profession, some are better than others.

On 1/27/2024 at 1:15 PM, JustRules said:

I have so many coaches screaming for holding on plays where it is obviously not holding to know coaches don't understand holding as well as they do. Some of that is because at the high school level we also have officials who call very ticky tack holding. We have to do better there.

No official is perfect so you aren't wrong there. But they are also right a lot more than you think. I know it sounds condescending or arrogant to say coaches and players don't know or understand rules, but it's the absolute truth. Everyone assumes because someone played they know the rules, but when I have in depth rules discussions with someone they realize how little actually know. Once I learned I didn't know the rules of football until I became an official I realized I don't know the rules of baseball or basketball as well as I thought I did. That's why I ask officials in those sports when I see something I think is wrong. I always learn something. I was on the board for a local youth league and a situation arose where a runner was not called out when a batted ball hit him as he was running from 2nd to 3rd. I always thought that was an out. Not only did I learn that's not always the case, but it's also different in the various rule sets. HS is different than Babe Ruth is different than Little League is different than American Legion. And baseball and softball have different rules about it. I had two siblings of one of the players get in my face and argue they have been playing X years and were current college players and had never seen that called. Then they called their dad who who had coached for 30 years, and he insisted the umpire was wrong. Guess what? Every baseball umpire I talked to asked me the same question when I presented the scenario. Had the ball passed an infielder when the ball hit the runner? That was a key factor in every rule set and none of the players or coaches arguing had any idea that was a factor.

Here's another great example, there are no fouls for "over the back" or "reaching in" in basketball but you hear announcers use it all the time. But as fans we all believe those acts are fouls.

I understand coaches yell out for penalties or complain because ones are called...but is this always because they don't understand rules or could this also be because they didn't have the view to actually see what truly happened?  Could it be both and not always the lack of understanding the game?

BTW, I watched both games yesterday, and listened to both the officiating experts point out what they felt were missed calls...especially with a couple of non-calls.  Example, Dean Blandino pointed out a missed late hit on the QB to the head when he was on the ground...replays confirmed he was right and it should have been a foul.  Officials do make mistakes from time to time....they are indeed human and we can all point to examples.  That is all I am saying.  They do a great job and no one expects them to be error free.

On 1/27/2024 at 11:59 AM, Bobref said:

I’ve officiated a thousand football games, and watched several times that many. Therefore, I am fully conversant in how to coach a football team, even though I’ve never actually done it.

Sounds stupid … maybe even a little bit arrogant … don’t you think?

So the only people that can grasp the rules of football are officials?  Man, was I sure tricked by all the coaches over the years that taught us the game, including rules, techniques to avoid breaking the rules both on the field and at coaching seminars.  

I wonder if coaching legends like Dick Dullghan understand they don't get the rules of the game......that is only reserved by officials. 🙄

1 minute ago, temptation said:

HUGE loss.  No other way to spin it.

I truly didn't know the impact....do you see others leaving to go with him to the Chargers?

looks like a member of the Wolverine staff headed to LA with Harbaugh.  

https://www.maizenbrew.com/2024/1/29/24054210/michigan-wolverines-college-football-ben-herbert-leaving-jim-harbaugh-nfl-los-angeles-chargers

Not sure of the impact, but day prior Sherrone Moore felt confident UM would retain him.

https://www.maizenbrew.com/2024/1/27/24052823/michigan-football-sherrone-moore-ben-herbert-2024-jim-harbaugh

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Unlikely.

Are all officials arrogant?  Officials with law backgrounds only?  Just curious.

Only officials understand the rules....ok....🙄

13 hours ago, JustRules said:

Over the course of a season a referee may call roughing 5 or 6 times. Holding calls are subjective and involve judgement the fan or media may not understand. It's not just a grasp or a pull. What you think was missed is most likely not a miss. 

As a former player and coach, I understand what holding is and isn’t. The head referee misses holding calls for time to time, especially with non-calls. That is a fact. 
 

All officials do their best, and some are better than others. But like any other human who are considered masters of their craft, they are not without blemish. 
 

Much of the media you downplay are former NFL players and they point out officiating errors through video. Dismissing their views as not understanding the game isn’t credible. 

16 hours ago, Irishman said:

I agree about Vrabel too; really surprised he has not landed somewhere. I am curious if he is just stepping away for a bit. 

Initially, I thought Vrabel’s availability gave Ryan Day something to be worried about…

18 hours ago, Irishman said:

So, openings are being filled, but BB is still without a job. I would say the odds are pretty high that he does not land a job at this point. I just think where current openings are, it will take some time to get the program on track. Does he have the time needed? Or even the commitment level to do the job well?  Thoughts? 

Very interesting Irish...I thought the same when the Falcons passed on BB.  I also found it interesting that BB is not getting that many interviews with an original fair amount of openings.  Given his age, do you think teams may be passing for what they consider are more relatable, flexible coaches? 

Teams such as the Titans, Raiders, etc. didn't even consider...perhaps they had phone conversations.  I believe only the Seahawks and Commanders are left with vacancies unless a team abruptly fires a coach.  I was wondering if the Eagles or even the Bills would pull the trigger, but they didn't.  Kind of tells me teams are not viewing BB as an upgrade to get them over the hump.  Lots of interesting articles about this...below is one.

https://sports.yahoo.com/as-falcons-pass-on-bill-belichick-its-clear-what-is-shutting-him-out-of-this-nfl-head-coaching-hiring-cycle-012324964.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADLIj8Wl1jZDu3bWyJ8yhF5cht-C0bYotgu5A4mL-XTMrheq4qo7WIuRJXmfRJrnmZnySgFmbOzZO-ZYxVaueiQJxP66PCmfATaBVPbIEd1z3pT0pd6ccOuIvn7BpFpDu_zs0LBeQFe-QaRHS6qut1-opwZyM1EZaH3KHEyLO1m4

Is anyone surprised that Vrabel isn't landing anywhere?  I was surprised the Pats didn't view him as a serious candidate.

Might be able to pull Tom Allen away from Penn State.  #LEO

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

Articles like that prove how little some people understand how football and officiating work. First, the referee makes very few of the calls in a game. Their attention is so focused on the QB and kickers they often have no idea what the result of a play is. There isn't much they could do to "influence" a game or "favor" one team. Second, the crew he's working with in the playoffs is different than the crew he's working with in the regular season. So any "trends" someone may think to propose wouldn't apply because it's a different set of people. It would be like having Patrick Mahomes as your Pro Bowl QB and then predicting the AFC Pro Bowl defense is likely to give up a lot of points because the Patrick Mahomes-led Chiefs give up more points than any team in the league.

I am not saying anything in deliberate, but the referee does make calls impacting the QB.  And there is tremendous interpretation that occurs.  For example, how I have witnessed Patrick Mahomes and Matthew Stafford earning roughing the QB calls were very different in the games they played. Is that due to simple variability in how the referee judges the foul...perhaps.  

I have also seen the referee make holding calls (or decide not to throw the flag) and replay will show us if he got it right or not in many of those cases.  Is a missed call deliberate?  I don't think so.  (others may have their own opinion)  Can they be impactful?....absolutely.

Can a referee or any official be influenced by the behavior or reputation of a given player?  Again, perhaps not intentionally, but do I believe certain players get the benefit of the doubt, which can include crunch time....absolutely.  At the end of the day, the referee is human, and not a robot.

23 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

Agreed. Play Indiana teams. Or schools that relatively nearby. Traveling 7 hours or so to play a short high school football game…cmon. As a fan, I’d rather see OUR INDIANA schools play.

Is Carmel still not playing CG?

Not in football....but other sports...yes

1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

are they closer to an agreement in LA?

https://www.si.com/nfl/2024/01/23/jim-harbaugh-chargers-could-agree-contract-offer-soon-report

If Harbaugh goes, this report has him raiding the UM staff to go with him......

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/jim-harbaughs-departure-could-result-chain-reaction-disastrous-blows-michigan

 

are they closer to an agreement in LA?

https://www.si.com/nfl/2024/01/23/jim-harbaugh-chargers-could-agree-contract-offer-soon-report

If Harbaugh goes, this report has him raiding the UM staff to go with him......

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/jim-harbaughs-departure-could-result-chain-reaction-disastrous-blows-michigan

14 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

A few corrections I need to make - autocorrect seemed to get a couple of the nicknames I posted. I also messed up and listed University as the Blazers instead of Trailblazers.

Lake Central Indians

Shoals Jug Rox

University Trailblazers

Vincennes Lincoln Alices

Love the Shoals nickname...personal bias given the neck of the woods I grew up in.....

8 hours ago, Irishman said:

Great game, but DAMMIT..........once Jones ran for 53 yards, you HAVE to put the game away following that. While they exceeded expectations, it's still frustrating to see them lose this way. They played to not lose; sat back in soft coverage and did not pressure Purdy. 

That said, nobody in the NFC will be able to hang with the Ravens. 

You have to be pretty pumped about the future. Never one play, but missed FG hurt in Q4. Excellent game!! 

5 hours ago, WolvesOnTheProwl said:

Is it true KK made bears fly out to California to meet with him? Maybe that’s common but don’t think he’s worth it.

Not sure. Agree with you about worth. I believe it all about KK’s relationship with Caleb Williams. 

Looks like one potential Harbaugh landing spot eliminated......

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39344707/raiders-working-finalize-deal-antonio-pierce