QB Hard Count - How much move movement is too much?

[kdets89]

QB in pistol, hard count with gesture.  What is the threshold for illegal procedure?  What do crews look for in evaluating QB movement?

[Bobref]

There’s no hard and fast answer here. The QB (or any other offensive player) is not allowed to simulate the start of a play, or do anything else designed to cause the defense to encroach. Hand clapping signals, or voice inflection, can be used without penalty. When you get into head bobs and other movement, it gets dicey. There’s no way to eliminate officiating judgment, and that will necessarily result in some degree of perceived inconsistency. 

[foxbat]

6 hours ago, Bobref said:

There’s no hard and fast answer here. The QB (or any other offensive player) is not allowed to simulate the start of a play, or do anything else designed to cause the defense to encroach. Hand clapping signals, or voice inflection, can be used without penalty. When you get into head bobs and other movement, it gets dicey. There’s no way to eliminate officiating judgment, and that will necessarily result in some degree of perceived inconsistency. 

Is this what's refs refer to as, "Don't start no sh*t, won't be no sh*t?" 😃

Lord, I apologize for that there.

[miner_35]

Had a QB start moving his shoulder on a hard count a few years ago, told him he needed to not do it again since he wasn’t doing it on every snap. Typically that was my go to when I had a conversation. Do it every play, you get more leeway. Do it once in a blue moon, you get a flag soon.

[jets]

On 10/18/2024 at 9:29 AM, Bobref said:

There’s no hard and fast answer here. The QB (or any other offensive player) is not allowed to simulate the start of a play, or do anything else designed to cause the defense to encroach. Hand clapping signals, or voice inflection, can be used without penalty. When you get into head bobs and other movement, it gets dicey. There’s no way to eliminate officiating judgment, and that will necessarily result in some degree of perceived inconsistency. 

Does it specify this in the Ref instructional manual, or is this your interpretation?? If so, can you please cite the page and subject manner so I can look it up for myself?

On 10/18/2024 at 9:29 AM, Bobref said:

There’s no hard and fast answer here. The QB (or any other offensive player) is not allowed to simulate the start of a play, or do anything else designed to cause the defense to encroach. Hand clapping signals, or voice inflection, can be used without penalty. When you get into head bobs and other movement, it gets dicey. There’s no way to eliminate officiating judgment, and that will necessarily result in some degree of perceived inconsistency. 

That is such a broad designation....under the letter of the law, then going "on 2" should be out-lawed, as well as any "dummy" motions (i.e. Flexbone teams) .  

[rob]

4 hours ago, jets said:

Does it specify this in the Ref instructional manual, or is this your interpretation?? If so, can you please cite the page and subject manner so I can look it up for myself?

That is such a broad designation....under the letter of the law, then going "on 2" should be out-lawed, as well as any "dummy" motions (i.e. Flexbone teams) .  

Didn't bring my books with me to work today.  What I'd do is start at the back several pages of the rule book where it breaks it down by 5, 10, 15 yard penalties.  Find Illegal Procedure and it should jump to the rules covered by that in the manual.  I try to review those penalties before a game.  I think the foot stomp is a common allowed motion and might be listed there.

[Bobref]

8 hours ago, jets said:

Does it specify this in the Ref instructional manual, or is this your interpretation?? If so, can you please cite the page and subject manner so I can look it up for myself?

That is such a broad designation....under the letter of the law, then going "on 2" should be out-lawed, as well as any "dummy" motions (i.e. Flexbone teams) .  

 

4 hours ago, rob said:

Didn't bring my books with me to work today.  What I'd do is start at the back several pages of the rule book where it breaks it down by 5, 10, 15 yard penalties.  Find Illegal Procedure and it should jump to the rules covered by that in the manual.  I try to review those penalties before a game.  I think the foot stomp is a common allowed motion and might be listed there.

You won’t find the answers to these questions in a rule book. Or a mechanics manual, for that matter. That’s because you are asking about the exercise of officiating judgment. The rule book is the starting place. But you can’t learn how to officiate by reading the rule book. That’s why we go to clinics, attend association meetings, watch video, read articles, etc. To learn the reasoning behind a rule, and the philosophy with which it is enforced. Then we can correctly apply those black and white rules to the infinite varieties of situations which we face on the field.

And you won’t find the term “illegal procedure” anywhere in the NF rule book. There’s no such thing.

[jets]

20 minutes ago, Bobref said:

 

You won’t find the answers to these questions in a rule book. Or a mechanics manual, for that matter. That’s because you are asking about the exercise of officiating judgment. The rule book is the starting place. But you can’t learn how to officiate by reading the rule book. That’s why we go to clinics, attend association meetings, watch video, read articles, etc. To learn the reasoning behind a rule, and the philosophy with which it is enforced. Then we can correctly apply those black and white rules to the infinite varieties of situations which we face on the field.

And you won’t find the term “illegal procedure” anywhere in the NF rule book. There’s no such thing.

Wow …that is a “dance around” -or should I say “lawyer’ish” answer if I’ve ever heard one. Lol…

Reading between the lines- what I heard was - certain things that certain refs and/or supervisors have deemed allowable can stand. 
 

It is what it is- but I don’t believe you can in the same breath say the rule states “The offense is NOT allowed to do anything to get the defense to encroach” ….BUT “this is allowed and this is allowed”…..BUT “this is not”

Seems …I don’t know…wrong 

[Bobref]

1 minute ago, jets said:

The offense is NOT allowed to do anything to get the defense 

1 minute ago, jets said:

Wow …that is a “dance around” -or should I say “lawyer’ish” answer if I’ve ever heard one. Lol…

Reading between the lines- what I heard was - certain things that certain refs and/or supervisors have deemed allowable can stand. 
 

It is what it is- but I don’t believe you can in the same breath say the rule states “The offense is NOT allowed to do anything to get the defense to encroach” ….BUT “this is allowed and this is allowed”…..BUT “this is not”

Seems …I don’t know…wrong 

Sorry if the explanation isn’t up to your standards of clarity or specificity. But if you’re expecting an answer like “The QB can bob his head to an angle of 45 degrees without penalty, but if he goes beyond that it’s a foul for a false start,” you’re not going to find it. Like I said, you may not like it, but you can’t escape it. Much of officiating training involves learning guidelines that help you decide what needs to be called, and what’s a no-call. In other words, informing officiating judgment. That’s why we get paid the big bucks. 😂

[jets]

18 minutes ago, Bobref said:

 

I appreciate your answers Bob and everything you've brought to this forum - I'm just giving you a hard time. 

I do wish there was a little more "clarity" when it comes to this particular rule set (I think I take more issue with the actual wording of the rule than how it is applied) - for example..in your example given - both hand gestures and voice inflection are DIRECTLY trying to get the defense to encroach - but as is life lol.