Will Vouchers affect the Football landscape in Indiana?

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Irishman said:

So, kids never defy their parents? Maybe kids decide they are not Christian because of their parents? Maybe the parents forced the children to attend? There are a number of possible scenarios. Funny that a religious freedom libertarian would support tax dollars going to religious schools. If or when the public system is eliminated (and there is no doubt those deciding policy and funding want that to happen, and suckered people like you into buying into it), that is all you will have left educating students in the country........with tax dollars. Careful what you wish for. 

Baby step, Irishman, baby steps.  The dissolution of the government education monopoly won't happen in day, or even a decade.  But it will happen, and that scares the hell out of you for some reason.

And I see no reason why the private sector cannot provide a superior educational product.  It happens today.

5 minutes ago, Irishman said:

There is no evidence to support your claim of it being a damn sight better. Plenty of evidence to show otherwise though. 

Links please.

 

[Irishman]

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Baby step, Irishman, baby steps.  The dissolution of the government education monopoly won't happen in day, or even a decade.  But it will happen, and that scares the hell out of you for some reason.

And I see no reason why the private sector cannot provide a superior educational product.  It happens today.

Links please.

 

It has NEVER been a monopoly....lol 

No it doesn't. 

Do your own research. I have posted many times the evidence over the years. You are not interested in reading it, so find it yourself. 

[Muda69]

19 minutes ago, Irishman said:

It has NEVER been a monopoly....lol 

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/0817939717_3.pdf

Quote

The most distinctive feature of the government school system is its near monopoly on the use of public funds earmarked for education. With a few exceptions, such as for special-needs students, travel and book expenses for children attending private schools in some states, and a few pilot voucher programs operating around the country, private schools are not eligible to receive tax dollars. As a result, private schools must compete against free government schools that typically outspend them by two to one. Not surprisingly, the private market for schooling is small and mostly nonprofit.

The way government schooling is organized ensures there is little or no competition for students. Students are assigned to schools based on where their parents live, and transfers to schools outside a district typically are made only with the approval of administrators of both the sending and receiving schools. Because of their “lock” on public funds, government schools face little effective competition from private schools. The result is a public school monopoly that limits parental choice, is insulated from competition, and is institutionally opposed to significant structural reform.

If there was one good thing to come out of the COVID debacle is was the small fracturing of the government school monopoly.  Let us hope it continues.

23 minutes ago, Irishman said:

No it doesn't. 

Do your own research. I have posted many times the evidence over the years. You are not interested in reading it, so find it yourself. 

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/charter-schools-outperform-traditional-public-schools-average-heres-why

Quote

High-quality studies find that charter schools boost achievement by more than their traditional-public-school counterparts—an advantage that is particularly large for students of color in disadvantaged urban communities, and one that has only grown larger as the charter sector has expanded and matured. For example, a June 2023 study conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) estimated that students who attended charter schools, on average, “advanced their learning in math by an additional six days in a year’s time, and in reading added sixteen days of learning,” compared to their traditional public school counterparts. Furthermore, “charter students in poverty had stronger growth, equal to seventeen additional days of learning in math and twenty-three additional days of learning in reading, than their [traditional public school] peers in poverty.”

...

 

[Irishman]

In other words, charter school lobbyists and operators find certain stats to toot their own horns while ignoring other details. Gee, go figure

[Sparty]

So does the NEA, ISTA, etc.  

[Muda69]

3 hours ago, Irishman said:

In other words, charter school lobbyists and operators find certain stats to toot their own horns while ignoring other details. Gee, go figure

Much like government school lobbyists (mostly ISTA/NEA shills) find certain stats to toot their own horns while ignoring other details. Oh, and throwing shade on charter, private, and parochial schools while they are at it.   Gee, go figure. 

 

[Irishman]

Keep telling yourselves that lol. 

Plenty of other sources and evidence to the contrary. 

Not necessarily throwing shade on any of the schools themselves, although there have been plenty of scandals, fraud and scams in the couple decades they have been in operation in Indiana, just critical of how the deck is stacked by politicians in their favor.

[Muda69]

11 hours ago, Irishman said:

Keep telling yourselves that lol. 

Plenty of other sources and evidence to the contrary. 

Not necessarily throwing shade on any of the schools themselves, although there have been plenty of scandals, fraud and scams in the couple decades they have been in operation in Indiana, just critical of how the deck is stacked by politicians in their favor.

Also plenty of sources out there with evidence on how government schools are failing it's customers.  But of course you refuse to do that kind of research, or if you do you just respond with canards like "It's the parent's fault!". 

And there is plenty of scandals, fraud, and scams going in with traditional government school corporations as well.  Whenever there is a lot of "free" taxpayer money to be had it brings out the hucksters and scammers, whether it is the local government school or a charter.  

Cases in point:

https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/bad-education-why-shocking-public-school-corruption-remains-hidden

https://www.ire.org/fraud-in-the-classroom-cooking-the-books-to-make-grades-better/

Edited July 24, 2025 by Muda69

[Irishman]

I will stay local. 

https://pro.stateaffairs.com/in/education/indiana-virtual-school-enrollment-scam 

https://indianacitizen.org/virtual-charter-lawsuit/

https://www.chalkbeat.org/indiana/2020/2/12/21178564/in-a-damning-audit-indiana-calls-on-two-virtual-schools-to-repay-85-million-in-misspent-state-funds/ 

 

Several years before these, local charter school operators were told to repay the State over $100Million

So in less than 10 years, charter operators in Indiana have defrauded Indiana tax payers to the tune of $383 Million.

when the State Board of Accounts looked into a charter school in Fort Wayne, they asked for financial records. The school refused stating they were a private business and are not required to do so. 
 

From 2001 to 2023, 1 of every 3 charter schools have closed, and most have done it during the school year. 

 

[Irishman]

Stacking the deck…..when it comes to evaluating schools, legislators on the Statehouse gave non public schools the option of using growth or proficiency when test scores are factored in. Did public schools get the same option? Nope. Proficiency is the dominant factor in public school evaluations. 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I will stay local. 

https://pro.stateaffairs.com/in/education/indiana-virtual-school-enrollment-scam 

https://indianacitizen.org/virtual-charter-lawsuit/

https://www.chalkbeat.org/indiana/2020/2/12/21178564/in-a-damning-audit-indiana-calls-on-two-virtual-schools-to-repay-85-million-in-misspent-state-funds/ 

 

Several years before these, local charter school operators were told to repay the State over $100Million

So in less than 10 years, charter operators in Indiana have defrauded Indiana tax payers to the tune of $383 Million.

when the State Board of Accounts looked into a charter school in Fort Wayne, they asked for financial records. The school refused stating they were a private business and are not required to do so. 
 

From 2001 to 2023, 1 of every 3 charter schools have closed, and most have done it during the school year. 

 

Yep, growing pains.  To be expected in a relatively new industry.  Glad to know most of these fraudsters are out of business. 

 

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Stacking the deck…..when it comes to evaluating schools, legislators on the Statehouse gave non public schools the option of using growth or proficiency when test scores are factored in. Did public schools get the same option? Nope. Proficiency is the dominant factor in public school evaluations. 

[Sparty]

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Also plenty of sources out there with evidence on how government schools are failing it's customers.  But of course you refuse to do that kind of research, or if you do you just respond with canards like "It's the parent's fault!". 

And there is plenty of scandals, fraud, and scams going in with traditional government school corporations as well.  Whenever there is a lot of "free" taxpayer money to be had it brings out the hucksters and scammers, whether it is the local government school or a charter.  

Cases in point:

https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/bad-education-why-shocking-public-school-corruption-remains-hidden

https://www.ire.org/fraud-in-the-classroom-cooking-the-books-to-make-grades-better/

Agreed

[Irishman]

22 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yep, growing pains.  To be expected in a relatively new industry.  Glad to know most of these fraudsters are out of business. 

 

Growing pains….the system has been in place for 21 years. 
 

And those fraudsters….often rename themselves and find another group to authorize them to continue what they have been doing. They are far from out of business. 
 

If your lack of understanding of the significance of being able to choose proficiency or growth leads to a childish response like that, that says more about you than anything else so far. 

[Muda69]

20 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Growing pains….the system has been in place for 21 years. 

And our government education system is close to 200 years old, yet it still has it fair share of fraud, abuse, and just plain poor performance.  And the boilerplate answer to these ills from the likes of the ISTA/NEA?  "Give us more money!"

22 minutes ago, Irishman said:

If your lack of understanding of the significance of being able to choose proficiency or growth leads to a childish response like that, that says more about you than anything else so far. 

Sorry, I do not claim to be a professional educator like you claim to be.   Are you a professional software engineer/architect?  We can have a discussion about that field if you would like, and then maybe I will get to haughtily pontificate on your "childish responses".   

[Irishman]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sorry, I do not claim to be a professional educator like you claim to be.   Are you a professional software engineer/architect?  We can have a discussion about that field if you would like, and then maybe I will get to haughtily pontificate on your "childish responses".   

See, there is the difference between us. I would never venture that deep into a conversation if my knowledge was lacking on the level that yours is on this topic all the while trying to act like I know more than I do. 

[Muda69]

https://www.cato.org/commentary/facebook-friends-are-wrong-about-educational-freedom

Quote

...

History has shown that using regulations and bureaucracy to drive quality doesn’t work. For example, in the highly regulated Baltimore public schools, 40 percent of high schools that administered the state exam in 2023 did not have a single student score proficient in math.

Education is, by its nature, very individualized. Different children have different educational needs. Beyond that, parents have a wide variety of considerations when it comes to education, including quality, pedagogy, values, religious teachings, safety, and environment. When rules about education are pushed at the federal level, it’s impossible to have the flexibility to meet these varied preferences and needs. And it’s hard for parents who disagree with the federal rules to make their voices heard.

Recognizing the individual nature of education, there has been a growing move to let funding follow students to various educational options rather than funding certain public schools. These programs are collectively called school choice since the early ones did just that — equip parents to choose a school other than the one their children had been assigned to. With vouchers, a portion of state funding can be used for private school tuition, and with tax credit scholarships, donors receive a credit against their state taxes for donating to organizations that provide private school scholarships.

But not all families want a conventional school. Some states offer more flexible education savings accounts, funded by state taxes, which can be used for expenses such as tutoring, curriculum, à la carte classes, and services for kids with special needs. Education tax credits can often offset expenses for a similarly diverse range of options. These more versatile “school” choice programs can typically be used for microschools, which are small schools that tend to group kids by ability rather than just age and use a student-centered approach; home education expenses; and hybrid options that include some days at home and some days in person.

Trump campaigned on school choice, and many supporters are pushing for a federal program. But the same concerns that justify ending the U.S. Department of Education give good reasons to be wary of a federal school choice program. While every state constitution mandates the creation of a public education system, the U.S. Constitution doesn’t mention education. Moreover, when states attempt to push harmful regulations on school choice programs, parents and other supporters have opportunities to rebuff those regulations. But at the federal level, it’s much harder to make an impact. Given both the constitutional and logistical issues, school choice programs are best enacted at the state level.

The good news is that school choice has expanded tremendously at the state level. The first modern school voucher program was enacted in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in 1990. There are now more than 80 school choice programs, including vouchers, tax credit scholarships, and education savings accounts, operating in thirty-three states plus Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico. Around 1.2 million students are participating in private school choice programs this year, compared to around 10,000 in 1996.

Of course, your Facebook friends are probably telling you this school choice expansion is terrible — that it will destroy public schools, is racist, and won’t help kids in rural areas. And I can’t skip the laughable claim that private schools aren’t as accountable as public schools. Well, your Facebook friends are wrong on all counts.

When someone tells you that school choice will destroy public schools, ask them how. Public schools are only affected if kids leave them for another educational option. Even then, only a portion of the funding would follow the kids, with the bulk remaining in the school they no longer attend. Anyone who thinks school choice will destroy public schools must assume nearly every student would switch schools as soon as it was feasible. Even the most ardent school choice supporters don’t think that. But if you believe that most students currently in public schools want to leave, shouldn’t that make you support choice? Why would you like students trapped in a school that isn’t working for them?

You may have also seen the allegation that school choice is racist or that it originated as a way for white Southerners to avoid integrated schools in the 1950s. In reality, racial minorities are often the biggest beneficiaries of school choice because they are often assigned to the lowest-performing public schools. That may explain why around 75 percent of black and Hispanic parents support school choice programs. While it’s true that some people wanted to use a voucher-type system to establish all-white private schools following school desegregation, the idea of school choice dates back to at least 1780 in the U.S., as the Cato Institute’s School Choice Timeline shows. Moreover, those same people had already used public schools to enforce segregated schooling.

When it comes to rural areas, your Facebook friends are probably offering contradictory claims — saying school choice will destroy rural public schools while simultaneously saying it won’t help kids in rural areas because other schools are not available. In reality, neither of these charges is true. As noted in a Heritage Foundation report, data from 2019 showed that a similar proportion of rural students attended public schools as did students in cities, and a greater proportion of rural students attended non-public schools than students in suburbs and towns. A 2022 study by Step Up for Students, Florida’s main scholarship organization, pointed to the growth of educational options in rural areas as school choice spread. Moreover, there is no evidence that the spread of school choice has harmed public schools. According to EdChoice, there have been twenty-eight studies looking at the competitive effects of school choice based on public school students’ test scores, and twenty-five found positive effects, while only two found negative effects.

This brings us to accountability. You’ve probably seen your Facebook friends saying school choice is bad because private schools aren’t as accountable as public schools. It’s absurd. Public schools attempt to drive accountability through bureaucratic rules and standardized test scores. But these things don’t empower parents to ensure their kids get a quality education, as evidenced by the earlier Baltimore example. What good does it do for parents to find out in high school that their kids didn’t learn to read? Especially if they don’t have access to another educational option. School choice programs offer true accountability because parents can leave — and take a portion of funding with them. The fear of losing funding can incentivize schools to improve. Just as important, it gives families the chance to find another option right away rather than wait years for their assigned school to improve.

So don’t let your Facebook friends steer you wrong. It may have made sense to assign kids to schools based on where they lived when public schools were created in the 1800s. But times have changed. In 2025, there’s no reason to limit kids to the school they happen to live near. With the spread of school choice programs, families across the income spectrum increasingly have access to the education that works for their children. And that’s a good thing.

 

[Sparty]

14 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

And our government education system is close to 200 years old, yet it still has it fair share of fraud, abuse, and just plain poor performance.  And the boilerplate answer to these ills from the likes of the ISTA/NEA?  "Give us more money!"

Sorry, I do not claim to be a professional educator like you claim to be.   Are you a professional software engineer/architect?  We can have a discussion about that field if you would like, and then maybe I will get to haughtily pontificate on your "childish responses".   

The money comment is 100% spot on.  Some of the schools that receive the most money per student, are some of the worst, educationally performing schools in the state, historically.  

I see Muda as someone who is well versed in this discussion and willing to debate.  As versed as he/she can be without being employed in the education field, as they just said.  

Edited July 24, 2025 by Sparty

[Sparty]

Wonder what would happen if teacher’s unions were eliminated and free market REALLY went to work here.  

[Muda69]

3 minutes ago, Irishman said:

See, there is the difference between us. I would never venture that deep into a conversation if my knowledge was lacking on the level that yours is on this topic all the while trying to act like I know more than I do. 

I have never tried to act like I know more than I do.  I have asked you, a professional educator,  for information and/or clarification several times.  Yet you most always demur with the deflection of "look it up yourself".  So I guess I'll be going to night school to get that teaching degree, then my knowledge will no longer be lacking.

Sorry that I, an Indiana taxpayer who helps to fund Indiana government schools, may have a differing opinion than that of a professional educator. 

 

7 minutes ago, Sparty said:

Wonder what would happen if teacher’s unions were eliminated and free market REALLY went to work here.  

Government schools would be forced to adapt/improve or go out of business.   Just like in the real world.

 

 

[Irishman]

24 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I have never tried to act like I know more than I do.  I have asked you, a professional educator,  for information and/or clarification several times.  Yet you most always demur with the deflection of "look it up yourself".  So I guess I'll be going to night school to get that teaching degree, then my knowledge will no longer be lacking.

Sorry that I, an Indiana taxpayer who helps to fund Indiana government schools, may have a differing opinion than that of a professional educator. 

These conversations have gone on for about 15 years now on this site in its various forms. There was a time I thought you actually were genuinely interested in learning details that factor into school performance as well what politicians are intentionally doing to make the public schools look bad or even fail. Then I realized you are actually were not and never have been interested in learning any of it. So, in recent years, I have stopped spending the time it takes to post those things in detail and have deferred to "look it up yourself" even though I know you never have and never will. Please do....go get a license and step up to teaching. I genuinely encourage you to do so. 

[Sparty]

15 years of harmless debate and we are slowly revealing the deficiencies of schools in general, but more specifically, public education.  

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

These conversations have gone on for about 15 years now on this site in its various forms. There was a time I thought you actually were genuinely interested in learning details that factor into school performance as well what politicians are intentionally doing to make the public schools look bad or even fail. 

I have also heard variations of this statement for going on 15 years now.   Why would duly elected politicians pass laws and enact policies that purposefully makes the government schools look bad or fail?  How do such actions enrich the politicians or their constituents?

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Please do....go get a license and step up to teaching. I genuinely encourage you to do so. 

Maybe, at least I will get the degree. Maybe work for a private institution that doesn't take taxpayer funds.  After a brief employment stint in college I swore to myself I would never take another government job, and I intend to honor that.  

 

 

[Irishman]

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I have also heard variations of this statement for going on 15 years now.   Why would duly elected politicians pass laws and enact policies that purposefully makes the government schools look bad or fail?  How do such actions enrich the politicians or their constituents?

$$$$$$ in their pockets and from the donors pushing the agenda. You think anyone in the supermajority in our Statehouse listens to their constituents? 

[Irishman]

I will add...pay attention to other things going on. Relaxing of child labor laws has been attempted the last couple of sessions, and could likely pass. The new graduation requirements dramatically increase the amount of internship hours students have to complete (aka free labor). these legislators want to guarantee a line of working class citizens. 

 

There is still a direct connection between the groups that support privatizing education as well as privatizing the prison system. Failing schools and/or lack of access to any school keeps that pipeline going. 

[Daniel_Bragg]

4 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I will add...pay attention to other things going on. Relaxing of child labor laws has been attempted the last couple of sessions, and could likely pass. The new graduation requirements dramatically increase the amount of internship hours students have to complete (aka free labor). these legislators want to guarantee a line of working class citizens. 

 

There is still a direct connection between the groups that support privatizing education as well as privatizing the prison system. Failing schools and/or lack of access to any school keeps that pipeline going. 

To the end of more internship hours, it is natural for the state to want to generate their own workforce.  The reality is that Indiana needs blue collar workers.  So, the DOE and political leaders are changing the curriculum to match the workforce needs.  

I usually don't get involved in political discussions on forums, as being a local elected official brings its own volume of discussion, but I did want to engage with that point.  I'm not saying I agree with the plan.  I prefer that we prepare our children for a life that leads to being the most educated that they can be.  However, when college has been proven over the past several decades to be more of a "piece of paper" than an achievement that prepares you for the real world, it is only natural that state governments would start getting pressured to deviate from that model.