Officials in the Finals

[Bobref]

This topic is about officials selected to work the Finals, not about the quality of the officiating in the actual games. Also, please be mindful of my disclaimer at the bottom of the page.

While at the games this weekend, I had a conversation with a good friend who also happens to be on any short list of the most knowledgeable people in the state of Indiana where high school football is concerned. He asked me a straightforward question: “Bob, why doesn’t the system attempt to put the 6 best officiating crews in LOS on Thanksgiving weekend?”

I tried to explain the IHSAA’s dual philosophy with respect to advancing crews in the tournament:

1. Insure that all crews are properly qualified to work at the tournament level to which they are assigned, and
2. Provide opportunities for advancement in order to incentivize officials to continue to improve. 

This latter objective is what prevents the same crews from working the Finals every year. Under the current system, once a crew works the Finals, the highest level they can work the following year is a Sectional Final. They can then advance, if warranted, a maximum of one level per year. The result is a crew could be “ranked” #1 in the State every year, but they’ll only get to the Finals once every 4 years. Looking at it from another viewpoint, you could theoretically have crews working the Finals who were ranked ## 19-24 in the State working the 6 games.

Thoughts? Particularly interested to hear from different viewpoints: fans, officials, coaches, etc.

[Yuccaguy]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

This topic is about officials selected to work the Finals, not about the quality of the officiating in the actual games. Also, please be mindful of my disclaimer at the bottom of the page.

While at the games this weekend, I had a conversation with a good friend who also happens to be on any short list of the most knowledgeable people in the state of Indiana where high school football is concerned. He asked me a straightforward question: “Bob, why doesn’t the system attempt to put the 6 best officiating crews in LOS on Thanksgiving weekend?”

I tried to explain the IHSAA’s dual philosophy with respect to advancing crews in the tournament:

1. Insure that all crews are properly qualified to work at the tournament level to which they are assigned, and
2. Provide opportunities for advancement in order to incentivize officials to continue to improve. 

This latter objective is what prevents the same crews from working the Finals every year. Under the current system, once a crew works the Finals, the highest level they can work the following year is a Sectional Final. They can then advance, if warranted, a maximum of one level per year. The result is a crew could be “ranked” #1 in the State every year, but they’ll only get to the Finals once every 4 years. Looking at it from another viewpoint, you could theoretically have crews working the Finals who were ranked ## 19-24 in the State working the 6 games.

Thoughts? Particularly interested to hear from different viewpoints: fans, officials, coaches, etc.

I am completely understanding of the system as it exists.  I (baseball); We (football) have been ranked #1 numerous times in the interim years preceding a State Finals Assignment.   As has happened with a particular poster who is also an official.  The system allows deserving officials/crews to advance even in the face of a lower ranking to the penultimate game.

It seems fair to be and honest.  Though there is a 1st year hiccup that I would change, which only allows the previous years' FB crew to officiate 1 game during Sectionals.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2025 by Yuccaguy

[JustRules]

3 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

I am completely understanding of the system as it exists.  I (baseball); We (football) have been ranked #1 numerous times in the interim years preceding a State Finals Assignment.   As has happened with a particular poster who is also an official.  The system allows deserving officials/crews to advance even in the face of a lower ranking to the penultimate game.

It seems fair to be and honest.  Though there is a 1st year hiccup that I would change, which only allows the previous years' FB crew to officiate 1 game during Sectionals.

 

 

The reason for that is to allow additional crews to work the first and second round that otherwise might not have a chance. That creates up to 6 more opportunities for those crews which is excellent. Otherwise those crews wouldn't get credit for working a tournament and not having 3 members of your crew without 5 tournament assignments in 6 years puts you way behind everyone else. There are a few very good crews with newer officials who still can't get first round games because of that.

[JustRules]

6 hours ago, Bobref said:

This topic is about officials selected to work the Finals, not about the quality of the officiating in the actual games. Also, please be mindful of my disclaimer at the bottom of the page.

While at the games this weekend, I had a conversation with a good friend who also happens to be on any short list of the most knowledgeable people in the state of Indiana where high school football is concerned. He asked me a straightforward question: “Bob, why doesn’t the system attempt to put the 6 best officiating crews in LOS on Thanksgiving weekend?”

I tried to explain the IHSAA’s dual philosophy with respect to advancing crews in the tournament:

1. Insure that all crews are properly qualified to work at the tournament level to which they are assigned, and
2. Provide opportunities for advancement in order to incentivize officials to continue to improve. 

This latter objective is what prevents the same crews from working the Finals every year. Under the current system, once a crew works the Finals, the highest level they can work the following year is a Sectional Final. They can then advance, if warranted, a maximum of one level per year. The result is a crew could be “ranked” #1 in the State every year, but they’ll only get to the Finals once every 4 years. Looking at it from another viewpoint, you could theoretically have crews working the Finals who were ranked ## 19-24 in the State working the 6 games.

Thoughts? Particularly interested to hear from different viewpoints: fans, officials, coaches, etc.

And that ranking contains a fair amount of subjectivity to it due to the coach vote being 40% of it. Just because a crew is ranked 10th doesn't necessarily mean they are the 10th best crew. Some could objectively argue the 40th ranked crew is better than the 10th ranked crew. There are more than 6 crews more than qualified to do an excellent job working a state final. And even if you rotated the same 6 crews every 4 years, there are more than 24 crews more than qualified to do an excellent job. This rotational system does give more qualified crews the opportunity to reach the highest level.

That being said, the system works to generally get very good crews to the state finals every years. There is a lot of variability in the quality of crews around the state, but the ones working Thanksgiving weekend are generally pretty good.

[Bobref]

17 hours ago, JustRules said:

And that ranking contains a fair amount of subjectivity to it due to the coach vote being 40% of it. Just because a crew is ranked 10th doesn't necessarily mean they are the 10th best crew. Some could objectively argue the 40th ranked crew is better than the 10th ranked crew. There are more than 6 crews more than qualified to do an excellent job working a state final. And even if you rotated the same 6 crews every 4 years, there are more than 24 crews more than qualified to do an excellent job. This rotational system does give more qualified crews the opportunity to reach the highest level.

That being said, the system works to generally get very good crews to the state finals every years. There is a lot of variability in the quality of crews around the state, but the ones working Thanksgiving weekend are generally pretty good.

Agree with everything you’ve said.

For me, the bolded statement is very important. The coaches’ vote is the single greatest factor in playoff advancement. As you know, I spend my football seasons these days trying to show crews that by improving their mechanics, their rules knowledge, and their understanding of the philosophies that underlie good officiating, they will become better officials. The problem is there is virtually no connection between those things and the coaches’ vote. Speaking in general - there are always exceptions - coaches have no interest in officiating mechanics, don’t know the rules nearly as well as they think they do, and have never been educated in the philosophies that underlie good officiating. Don’t get me wrong. Coaches are major stakeholders, and should have some voice in the process. But frankly, they are ill-suited to evaluate officiating proficiency, and it is unfair to them to ask coaches to evaluate something they’ve never been trained in, and when they are nowhere near objective.

So, when a crew asks me whether their tournament status will improve if they do the work the way our Manual says they should, I have to be honest and answer “I don’t know.” And that’s because the annual process of ranking crews for tournament assignment and advancement purposes is fatally flawed, and is a cause of much disaffection in the officiating community. We all know crews that are so disgusted by the process that they don’t even apply for the tournament. We also know officials who have given up officiating, with frustration at the tournament process being a significant factor in their decision.

 

[Yuccaguy]

18 hours ago, JustRules said:

The reason for that is to allow additional crews to work the first and second round that otherwise might not have a chance. That creates up to 6 more opportunities for those crews which is excellent. Otherwise those crews wouldn't get credit for working a tournament and not having 3 members of your crew without 5 tournament assignments in 6 years puts you way behind everyone else. There are a few very good crews with newer officials who still can't get first round games because of that.

I ALSO agree with EVERYTHING you said. 

Perhaps my "rant" may be very personal with the crew.  But at some point (I use Baseball as an example).... You have to have a situation where you divide the 'wheat from the chaff'.   Advancement is NOT a time for a "participation trophy" with kids that have put in 4 years of sweat and toil.  

Just my $.02 cents.  

Edited December 1, 2025 by Yuccaguy

[JustRules]

25 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

I ALSO agree with EVERYTHING you said. 

Perhaps my "rant" may be very personal with the crew.  But at some point (I use Baseball as an example).... You have to have a situation where you divide the 'wheat from the chaff'.   Advancement is NOT a time for a "participation trophy" with kids that have put in 4 years of sweat and toil.  

Just my $.02 cents.  

True, but there are crews who are good enough to work a first or second round game but don't get it because there are not enough spots. This creates at least a few more spots for them to have an opportunity. No ranking system is a true level of quality of the crew. I would say it's a pretty good general approximation though. The first quadrant is generally better than the second quadrant. And the 4th quadrant either struggles enough the coaches are consistently giving them lower rating or they have new guys or guys missing meetings or not doing well on the test impacting their overall rating score. This process makes it possible for those crews to get a chance to earn a tournament game credit. With that, I still know a couple very good and competent crews who sat home week 1 for various reasons.

[gindie]

On 12/1/2025 at 4:25 PM, Bobref said:

Agree with everything you’ve said.

For me, the bolded statement is very important. The coaches’ vote is the single greatest factor in playoff advancement. As you know, I spend my football seasons these days trying to show crews that by improving their mechanics, their rules knowledge, and their understanding of the philosophies that underlie good officiating, they will become better officials. The problem is there is virtually no connection between those things and the coaches’ vote. Speaking in general - there are always exceptions - coaches have no interest in officiating mechanics, don’t know the rules nearly as well as they think they do, and have never been educated in the philosophies that underlie good officiating. Don’t get me wrong. Coaches are major stakeholders, and should have some voice in the process. But frankly, they are ill-suited to evaluate officiating proficiency, and it is unfair to them to ask coaches to evaluate something they’ve never been trained in, and when they are nowhere near objective.

So, when a crew asks me whether their tournament status will improve if they do the work the way our Manual says they should, I have to be honest and answer “I don’t know.” And that’s because the annual process of ranking crews for tournament assignment and advancement purposes is fatally flawed, and is a cause of much disaffection in the officiating community. We all know crews that are so disgusted by the process that they don’t even apply for the tournament. We also know officials who have given up officiating, with frustration at the tournament process being a significant factor in their decision.

 

Are there any pre-season meetings conducted by officials where coaches attend to try and get a better understanding of these issues?

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, gindie said:

Are there any pre-season meetings conducted by officials where coaches attend to try and get a better understanding of these issues?

The IHSAA’s curriculum for local association meetings includes a “coaches panel” meeting, where 3-4 coaches attend a meeting and there’s discussion back and forth. There is also the mandatory new rules meeting conducted by the IHSAA for head football coaches. That meeting goes over rules changes and points of emphasis.