4th Down IG

[Esso Ayche]

This is a middle school thing I recently observed and I can't really recall ever seeing it before. I'm making up most of the details, but the essence is there.

Fourth and ten from the A 40, QB is being sacked at the A 30 and blindly flings it to the A35 and there is no eligible receiver within 15 yards. Obviously IG (to this layman at least). Flag come out, signal is IG.

I don't know what the discussion was between the B coach and the white hat, but ultimately B takes over 1st and ten at the A 40 (original LOS).

Wouldn't an option for the B team be to accept the penalty, mark off ten yards, and take over at the A 30?

[foxbat]

29 minutes ago, Esso Ayche said:

This is a middle school thing I recently observed and I can't really recall ever seeing it before. I'm making up most of the details, but the essence is there.

Fourth and ten from the A 40, QB is being sacked at the A 30 and blindly flings it to the A35 and there is no eligible receiver within 15 yards. Obviously IG (to this layman at least). Flag come out, signal is IG.

I don't know what the discussion was between the B coach and the white hat, but ultimately B takes over 1st and ten at the A 40 (original LOS).

Wouldn't an option for the B team be to accept the penalty, mark off ten yards, and take over at the A 30?

It sounds like there was some convincing or discovery that there was a receiver in the area and thus incomplete pass and turnover on downs at the original LOS.  In essence the flag is waived off.  I've seen this a couple of times in the past and both times it was because of a tackle-eligible situation caused by a shift of the end/receiver who then uncovered him.  In both cases, the offensive team's coach had informed the ref that the tackle would be eligible.  In one of the cases, the announcement was made to everyone and it was one of those "Oh, yeah, that's right, you told us" and the flag was waived off.  In the other case, one ref had been informed and he didn't inform other folks.  Again, it was one of those, "Hey, it's not an issue as that tackle that stayed in and blocked was actually eligible."  Your described situation seems like the flag was waived off, but no indication of such was made to the stands.

[Esso Ayche]

4 hours ago, foxbat said:

It sounds like there was some convincing or discovery that there was a receiver in the area and thus incomplete pass and turnover on downs at the original LOS.  In essence the flag is waived off.  I've seen this a couple of times in the past and both times it was because of a tackle-eligible situation caused by a shift of the end/receiver who then uncovered him.  In both cases, the offensive team's coach had informed the ref that the tackle would be eligible.  In one of the cases, the announcement was made to everyone and it was one of those "Oh, yeah, that's right, you told us" and the flag was waived off.  In the other case, one ref had been informed and he didn't inform other folks.  Again, it was one of those, "Hey, it's not an issue as that tackle that stayed in and blocked was actually eligible."  Your described situation seems like the flag was waived off, but no indication of such was made to the stands.

Well, let's say some video backs up the IG call (no one including eligible tackle). Would my original assumption of 1-10 fo B on the A 30 be correct? I'm not necessarily claiming the officials made a mistake here, I'm actually questioning whether the B HC declined the penalty because he didn't know he'd get the ball if he accepted. All speculation either way on the discussion between all parties, I'm more curious to know if my understanding of the  call would be correct.

[foxbat]

6 minutes ago, Esso Ayche said:

Well, let's say some video backs up the IG call (no one including eligible tackle). Would my original assumption of 1-10 fo B on the A 30 be correct? I'm not necessarily claiming the officials made a mistake here, I'm actually questioning whether the B HC declined the penalty because he didn't know he'd get the ball if he accepted. All speculation either way on the discussion between all parties, I'm more curious to know if my understanding of the  call would be correct.

If B declined, ball would be on the the 40 with 1st and 10 for B ... although I'm not sure why B would decline unless, like you said, they didn't understand that he was getting the ball either way. 

Not specifically sure of placement in high school, but I believe that, if A's QB is less than 10 yards behind the LOS, then it is 10 yards from the previous spot and loss of down.  If A is further back than 10 yards, then it's considered a spot foul and loss of down.  One change that did happen in 2022 is that, if QB is outside of the tackles and clears the neutral zone with the throw, it doesn't matter if there is a receiver close by or not, it wouldn't be grounding.

[Bobref]

There would be no reason to decline. Enforcement is 5 yds. from the spot of the pass, and the down counts. So, the ball would go over.

As a practical matter, an experienced Referee would not even offer B’s coach a choice. Just mark off 5 from the spot of the pass, give the IG signal, together with loss of down, turn around and point the 1st down the other way, set the chains and away we go.

[Impartial_Observer]

Is there a possibility they declined the penalty to get the ball? Possibly the WH didn’t know/offer loss of down aspect? MS games are a good place for young officials learning or trying new positions. 
 

[Esso Ayche]

9 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Is there a possibility they declined the penalty to get the ball? Possibly the WH didn’t know/offer loss of down aspect? MS games are a good place for young officials learning or trying new positions. 
 

I'd say that this may be the most likely scenario.

[Impartial_Observer]

On 9/18/2022 at 4:30 PM, Esso Ayche said:

I'd say that this may be the most likely scenario.

Along the same lines last night I was working a throw together crew in a JV game. H throws his flag straight up in the air just after the ball is snapped. A 1/10 runs 11 yards. I stop the clock and go to the H, he’s got B lined up in the neutral zone. 
My options are:

A) Go back to the original LOS and mark off 5 yards and replay the down. 
B) Wave it off. 
C) Give the signal and decline it. 
A’s not fair in my opinion. 
B’s probably the easiest. 
C seems most reasonable to me because it covers what happened and doesn’t penalize A for our mistake. It’s also going to be the most confusing when I give the signal. 
What do you do?

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Along the same lines last night I was working a throw together crew in a JV game. H throws his flag straight up in the air just after the ball is snapped. A 1/10 runs 11 yards. I stop the clock and go to the H, he’s got B lined up in the neutral zone. 
My options are:

A) Go back to the original LOS and mark off 5 yards and replay the down. 
B) Wave it off. 
C) Give the signal and decline it. 
A’s not fair in my opinion. 
B’s probably the easiest. 
C seems most reasonable to me because it covers what happened and doesn’t penalize A for our mistake. It’s also going to be the most confusing when I give the signal. 
What do you do?

First, I’d let someone else wear the white hat ….

[Impartial_Observer]

16 minutes ago, Bobref said:

First, I’d let someone else wear the white hat ….

That was not an option last night. Only when forced to. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Impartial_Observer

[Esso Ayche]

2 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Along the same lines last night I was working a throw together crew in a JV game. H throws his flag straight up in the air just after the ball is snapped. A 1/10 runs 11 yards. I stop the clock and go to the H, he’s got B lined up in the neutral zone. 
My options are:

A) Go back to the original LOS and mark off 5 yards and replay the down. 
B) Wave it off. 
C) Give the signal and decline it. 
A’s not fair in my opinion. 
B’s probably the easiest. 
C seems most reasonable to me because it covers what happened and doesn’t penalize A for our mistake. It’s also going to be the most confusing when I give the signal. 
What do you do?

Jeez.

If you're a stickler, I guess A would be the "right" answer since the play should be shut down.  I suppose you could tell the coaches that the head linesman's whistle got clogged up with sunflower seed shells and no one could actually hear him.  But yeah, unfair to the offense... plus it is JV, and we all want to get home at some point. 😂

B if you don't want to own up to it, sweep that sucker under the rug.

C is probably the best answer for the circumstances.  Although the B coach might want to fight you FOR penalizing his team... that might be a first.

[Impartial_Observer]

I had several issues that all seem to favor the home team. Visiting coach is a guy I’ve had a relationship with, I was honest, and we moved on. He won the game by two scores also helped. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Impartial_Observer