XStar

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Sure it is.  Percentage of students who qualify for free/reduced lunch.  

The specifics on how to qualify are clearly listed on the DOE’s website.

Next...

That's how you choose to define it.  I could use the same metric to define upscale if I wanted.  

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

That’s been MY point the entire time.  I don’t get caught up in adjectives such as “upscale.”

The term "economically disadvantaged" isn't exactly defined either.  

4 hours ago, temptation said:

Completely plausible...but you still don’t get it.

A favorable SES doesn’t guarantee success but the combination of a poor SES and a low enrollment compared to the rest of the schools in your class is a death sentence in the sport of football.

Of course, unless you do your homework and provide a legitimate example.

Its due in the morning.

Now you're arguing a point that was never made.  

3 hours ago, temptation said:

If you are under the 50 percent threshold of “economically disadvantaged” (WeBo is at 32) it is MUCH easier to build this “culture” so many of the posters on here tout.

Or perhaps the culture allows that community to avoid being labeled "economically disadvantaged"?

Also, the "culture" doesn't have to be reflected through football.  It could be that some communities prioritize other things over high school football.  As usual, the context of this forum is very narrowly focused.  In other such communities, it could be basketball.  In others, it might be something not even related to high school sports.  You can obviously work hard at other things.

38 minutes ago, temptation said:

Provide that comparison please.  I’ll wait.

Some of you throw out blanket statements, @Muda69links the actual data and you double down on your denial.

Go look it up yourself.  Is Frankfort the absolute worst in the state?  Unless they are, then they are upscale compared to someone else going by your comparison-method of determining who is upscale.  

32 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You are 'upscale' when compared to Frankfort. The SES data confirms it.

 

Not saying much.  There's probably some comparison that makes Frankfort look upscale to someone else.  Doesn't mean they are compared to all their peers.  Nice reach on this argument, but still a big fail.  

2 hours ago, DT said:

Im here to give opinions.  Not simply to reguritate known facts.  You can disagree with my opinions all you want, but that doesnt necesarily make either of us wrong.

Get your head out of your ass and back in the game.

Do you understand the difference between opinions and facts?

6 minutes ago, DT said:

Ask the Warren central guys about that?

Not relevant in the least.  I can observe the demographics of their football teams in the 90's and now.  You could too but it would be one more flaw in your argument here.  

1 hour ago, DT said:

Penn does not have the athletes.  Not enough black dudes.

Maybe go look at the team photos of their state title winners.  

6 hours ago, DT said:

I did not make any reference to Penn as a blue collar community.  I linked it to Hobart and Sheridan as a former public school dynasty

With regards to Western Boone, it's proximity to Indianapolis gives it the perception, real or not, that the school is more upscale and affluent than the majority of its class peers.  

Also, Sheridan is no further from Indianapolis than Western Boone.  Closer I think.  Why does that proximity give Western Boone the "perception" of being affluent but not Sheridan?  Again, inconsistency with how you choose to view things.  You seem to be distorting facts to try to arrive at the conclusion you've predetermined.  

5 hours ago, DT said:

I did not make any reference to Penn as a blue collar community.  I linked it to Hobart and Sheridan as a former public school dynasty

With regards to Western Boone, it's proximity to Indianapolis gives it the perception, real or not, that the school is more upscale and affluent than the majority of its class peers.  

You did not say Penn was blue collar but if you're not at least inferring that then I don't understand the point in including them in your argument here while excluding well-to-do giant schools like Center Grove and Westfield.  Just my opinion here but I think Penn just needs the right head coach to get back to actually competing for and winning state titles somewhat regularly.  They still have the favorable social and financial advantages they had in the 90's but lost their legendary coach.  That is the difference I see that prevents them from competing with the Indy powers in 2021.  

That's interesting.  What was his reason for stepping down at Marian in 2017?  Maybe he just needed a break.  

8 hours ago, DT said:

The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

You're kind of all over the place here and don't make a ton of sense.  Pioneer is blue collar but Western Boone is upscale??  Center Grove is affluent but Penn is not?

I certainly would agree that the money in some communities provide an advantage but Western Boone is much closer to Sheridan and Pioneer in culture than they are to Chatard.   Penn does not lack for resources whatsoever and nobody that lives in the South Bend area thinks of them as blue collar.  

8 hours ago, foxbat said:

With the Sectional of Death, I'm thinking WeBo got the more "interesting" placement in that deal.  At least Chatard will be absent during the festivities.

Agree.  Taking Chatard out of that sectional made it more interesting to start with.  Then adding a program that might be able to compete added a little more intrigue.  It will be interesting to see it play out.  My money is on Brebeuf in 2021 just because I think Strickland should be a force nobody can match up with. 

4 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

Correct.  LCC replaced Webo in 2A, Webo replaced Chatard in 3A Sectional.  It's a 1 year deal and then after enrollments are taken the Sectionals will be re aligned.  

So let's say Webo doesn't win a 3A sectional in 2021 or 2022.  Will they go back down to 2A (assuming their enrollment would fall in line with that classification) in 2023 or are they in 3A for 3 seasons since they won't want to re-do sectionals again after 2022?

24 minutes ago, Bobref said:

No argument there. It’s just a question of where the fault lies.

Technically, Mayor Pete had little to do with the school board and their problems.  As you mentioned, those are elected positions. 

That said, one could argue that he had little to do with the private investment that happened in downtown while he was mayor also and he had no problem claiming that as his success, one of the few he can point to in my opinion.  If I'm being totally fair to him, I don't think he's responsible for the failures of the school system.  Crime is a different story.  Credit where it is due though, he did get Brian Boitano to come to the grand opening of a $20 million dollar ice skating project he had built in a downtown park!

1 hour ago, DT said:

With all due respect to South Bend, we have seen consolidation in Muncie, East Chicago, Michigan City, Anderson, Elkhart, and Hammond over the past two decades.

Terre Haute is currently undertaking a full scale review of its future needs and will take action soon.

Why should we give South Bend a pass when others with similar challenges have taken decisive action?

The Citys toxic political culture is no excuse for inaction  in my view.

Um.  I'm not sure that you are in charge of giving out "passes" for decisions made in South Bend.  I know I'm not and I actually live/vote here.

South Bend is very much looking into consolidation.  They are not considering the ramifications that would have on their high school football teams either, as they shouldn't.  The school corporation is a mess.  Failing schools and they continue to lose students and funding.  They (teachers and school corporation) just rammed through a huge property tax increase last year that will give them an additional $220 million over the next 8 years to cover up their failures and I have no doubt once that is up they'll come back blaming a lack of funds for their continuing to fail and then ask for even more.

At any case, it's kind of laughable that you think anyone might care to consider your feelings on the matter or that you have any kind of position to hold them accountable for anything, especially by using high school football for reasoning.  Even though I happen to agree that consolidation would be beneficial, I think you are totally misguided in your considerations.  

On 5/27/2021 at 1:47 PM, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

Here might be a topic  to discuss for a while.

Do you think that the South Bend schools help or hinder the rest of the schools in conference, in football?

Interested to see everyone's opinion

Hinder. 

I don't think any of them have beaten Penn in nearly 40 years. 

Adams has never won a sectional.  They are currently one of the top 5A enrollments.

LaSalle never won a sectional when they were still around.    

Riley won only one and that was in 1992. 

Clay's only sectional win was in 2002 and they haven't won a single tournament game in the past 10 seasons. 

Washington went to state in 2011 but other than that hasn't won as much as a sectional in the past 40 years. 

Even St. Joe has fallen on hard times with losing records in 4 of the past 5 years.  

Using last year's end-of-season Sagarins, it looks like this:

54 - West Lafayette

62 - Brebeuf

68 - Western Boone

81 - Guerin Catholic

147 - Yorktown

152 - North Montgomery

165 - Hamilton Heights

252 - Crawfordsville

Looks like it could be pretty competitive between the upper half teams if they are similar to last season.  Can't speak to what people have coming back besides Western Boone.  If memory serves, the announcers made a point during their 2A state championship game of talking about how many underclassmen were playing and how they thought they were a year away before making a run in the playoffs last year.  But I think they lost their workhorse RB in Taylor, their top WR in Garrity, and Marsh who was their top LB and was 2nd on the team in both rushing and receiving yards.  They do return most of their linemen on both sides of the ball, 2 really good linebackers, I think most of their secondary, and their quarterback.  I'm really interested to see them compete in 3A.  How they do against Danville and Tri-West in conference could be a preview of how competitive they might be against other top 100 3A teams.  

11 minutes ago, RedwoodCowTippers said:

LCC won't make it out of sectionals this year.....

yes, I know something you don't know.....

No, I won't tell you what that something is, you will see in time...

And you are only half right if you think this statement has something to do with the school affiliated with on my profile....

I don't know what any of the teams in that sectional have coming back or coming in, LCC included.  So if you do, you certainly know more than me.  Not a high bar to clear on that front and really not anything that's going to have anyone on the edge of their seat going into next season so the allusion to some sort of big secret is kind of funny.  Tell me.  Don't tell me.  No big deal to me either way. 

I will say that for anyone in that sectional to end up at Lucas Oil in 2021, they will have to be much improved from last season but stranger things happen every single year.

10 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

Luers has to be the favorite... If they return most of what they had in the State Game in 20 they will be athletic and very, very good.

Agree but if they have to play in bad weather in the playoffs it could be a problem for them.  I don't see a 2A defense stopping their passing attack but wind, rain, ice and/or snow could and they didn't show the ability to stop a good running game in the playoffs last season.  I could see a Pioneer, Andrean, Eastbrook, or Eastside (or whoever emerges as the top teams in the North) knocking them off in bad weather.

If they get back to Lucas Oil, I don't know how they lose.  Clark would have to have a really bad game and 2A South looks like it could be kind of weak without Western Boone in it but you never know who may emerge or re-emerge.  Linton-Stockton fans seem to always think whoever beats them is going to win it all.  It's too bad they couldn't re-set the sectionals this year because 2A could use it for a little competitive balance.  3A too actually.    

4 hours ago, foxbat said:

LCC and Pioneer had to go to 2A to escape the potential for knocking the other out early in the tournament.  In the past 20 years, LCC and Pioneer have met like 13 times in post-season with 11 of those resulting in one or the other being knocked out in sectionals.  In at least a couple of those cases it was #1 vs. #2 and in a couple of cases it was the very first game of sectionals where #1 eliminated #2.

Will be interesting to see if they end up back together in 2022.  I'd guess so.  LCC has no business going through the South.  

Did not know him but I live in the community and the reaction from those on social media who knew him is pretty overwhelming.  He clearly meant alot to many people.  Prayers to his family, including his wife and two sons.  I can't even imagine.  

Wow.  2-year series with Eastbrook is over?  Wonder which side ended that. 

I see Eastbrook now is playing Huntington North and New Haven instead of Marion and Delta.  Unfortunate given how bad the CIC is.  I would like to have seen them add some better competition.  Going to be hard to beat Bishop Luers, Pioneer, LCC, Rensselaer Central, Andrean or whoever they play if they get out of sectional if they haven't faced that level of competition yet.  Maybe they don't think they'll have the talent to worry about it the next couple of seasons.  I think the tougher non-conference clearly helped them in 2019.  

13 hours ago, DT said:

This is a great short cut to mega school status.

Terre Haute and Bloomington should follow suit.  Both would be infinitely more interesting to watch as 3000 plus enrollment megas than middling 5A non contenders.

We are now in a period of consolidation.  Hammond and Elkhart have followed Muncie and Anderson down this path.  South Bend should be primed to consolidate from 4 down to 2.  Just get it done and get these programs strengthened for the future.

 

Maybe the entire school corporation doesn't revolve around football?  I realize this is a football board but you have to realize there are far more significant factors in such decisions.  

23 minutes ago, XStar said:

I'm by no means an insider but I went there and also follow the program from afar also.  

Historically, the program has had cycles where they were competitive at a state-championship level.  For whatever reason, they seemed stronger at the end of most decades as they won state in 1988, lost at state in 1998, and won state again in 2008.  They were also pretty good in seasons around those runs like 1989, 1997, and obviously 2019-2020.  

So while they have not been competing for state titles every year, they have had intermittent success historically.  

They have had some really talented classes come through lately to win the three straight titles but from what I hear the cupboard isn't bare moving forward.  3A will certainly be another level.  Western Boone has played 3A before but hasn't won so much as a sectional.  I think maybe they were in 3A for 6 or 8 seasons prior to the last 4.  Unfortunately, even when they were good, they were often in a sectional with Chatard, West Lafayette, or another state finalist like Hamilton Heights or Tri-West.  

I don't know the plans of the coach.  His dad coached for a long time at Speedway so hopefully he has similar plans at Western Boone but I can't claim any inside knowledge there.  I will say that there are things at Western Boone that other coaches spend years trying to build up in other communities.  It's a rural, farming community and many of the kids that have played in the program stick around as adults/parents and care about the program.  Parent participation in the youth program is littered with former players that now have kids coming up and those parents are willing to put tremendous time and effort into it.  You don't find that everywhere.

Going forward, they will need to be their best to make deep runs in 3A.  Much will depend on the sectional they are assigned.  At least they can be sure there is no Chatard this time so they have that going for them.  But they will likely find teams like Danville, Tri-West, West Lafayette, and/or Guerin Catholic in their sectional so they will still have to be really good to come out on top.  I think in 2019 they could've beaten almost anyone in 3A outside of Chatard by the end of the season but that was probably the best football team in school history in my opinion.  I don't know if they have state-level talent for 3A coming up or not but I know they started many underclassmen this past year so I think they should remain competitive at least.  I don't know if that translates to success at the 3A level of not.  Will be interesting to see.  

@1st_and_10 and @1st and Goal might have better perspective than me.  

 

I meant to say they won state in 2018, not 2008.