BTF

45 minutes ago, Olympian06 said:

Might be the favorite? That’s comical... not even debatable they are the favorite. 

No one is saying they aren't the favorite. I'm just saying that when Dwenger beats them in the state finals, it won't be a "monumental" upset.

Does Dwenger share the gate with their opponent?

5 hours ago, Olympian06 said:

It would be a monumental upset if NP doesn’t win the 5A state title.. they are absolutely loaded this year. Heard that Hook kid is pretty good 😉. 

If Cathedral or Dwenger win, there won't be anything "monumental" about it. I think it's ok to say that NP might be the favorite. If Cathedral or Dwenger beat them it's because they are the better team................and it might happen.

5 minutes ago, Mayo77 said:

Just me but I'll never understand the fascination with H.S. poll.   Of course it's great for a school to get recognized but it does nothing for you when it counts.   Tournament time.   

Can't argue with that.

South Adams...............seven loses in a row to Adams Central. Is this the year? Keep an eye on the Starfires!

FW Wayne....................they loose a few key players, but they've improved in each of their first four seasons under Coach Moore. They will be a Top Ten team when it's all said and done with. The SAC is stacked this year. So even a three loss regular season should qualify them for 4a Top Ten status.

5 hours ago, Warren05 said:

Let me be the first to say it" polls mean nothing. It's just for the fans"

 

Now that that is out of the way I am of the opinion teams that win state the year before should always be ranked number 1 till they get knocked off

The Coaches Poll normally makes more sense than the AP Poll. Carmel must have a load of kids coming back to warrant being ranked above Warren Central. Personally, I'd rank the Warriors #1 until another team proves they are worthy of that position. 

My dark horse for the year it Homestead. I think when it's all said and done, they'll have received votes. 

Lafayette Jeff in the Top 10? Another team with many returning starters? 

7 hours ago, Temptation said:

I'm not denying the legacy of the Snider program as the numbers speak for themselves.  However, this conversation took a left turn.  The insinuation that Snider SHOULD move up and voluntarily play 6A was the main argument and it is still a ridiculous take, regardless of what the numbers say.  I truly get the whole "now that we are there, we have to embrace it" mentality but what else do you expect them to say?

Can they compete?  Most often, sure.  Should they have to?  A debate for another thread.

Opinion noted and respected. This would be a good stopping point for this thread. Thanks for your insight. 

On 8/4/2019 at 9:39 PM, Temptation said:

Nah, it’ll be “over” IF Snider gets to the regional...

That's a big "if". Homestead looks to put a pretty good football team on the field this year and are hungry for a victory over the Panthers.

On 8/4/2019 at 9:39 PM, Temptation said:

Carmel 42-13.

You may very well be right...............Carmel is a BEAST!

On 8/4/2019 at 9:39 PM, Temptation said:

I just hope folks don’t come on here claiming some sort of moral victory or talk about how the Panthers lost with “honor.”

That won't happen. The culture at Snider is to win. Twenty seven sectionals, 16 Regionals, 7 Semi States, & 2 State Championships. 

On 8/4/2019 at 9:39 PM, Temptation said:

You’d better believe the success factor will then be brought up once again and fairness will be questioned.

Not anyone from Snider and certainly not on this forum. 

Here's the thing Temptation. When playing in 6a, Snider will be a Top 15 team 30% of the time, Top 10 team 30%, Top 5 Team 30%, and a Top 2 team 10% of the time.That's pretty much a fact.  With that being said, 6a is a better class with Snider in it. 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:18 AM, Temptation said:

I can relate to that more than you think but the insinuation that a school should VOLUNTEER to play up a class in order to “play the best because WE’RE Snider” is still asinine.  Even more so when it’s coming from someone not affiliated with the team.

You’re trying to start a completely different argument and the two topics are not mutually exclusive.

I can teach you how to start a new thread if you’d like.  Let me know.

”Coached football for a couple years” lol.

It sounds like you are getting flustered because many on here disagree with your line of thought. You somehow think that you speak for EVERY high school football player in the state of Indiana. That's very irresponsible. The fact of the matter is, you DO NOT speak for every football player in the state, maybe just the ones you've had personal contact with. There are many on this topic who feel that there ARE players who are willing to accept the greater challenge. What is wrong with that? Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Not everyone wants a participation trophy. There are lots of kids who want to earn their trophy by playing teams that better challenge them. So what if the kids you know choose to take the easier path. Stop crucifying those who seek greater challenge. 

"Snider should volunteer to play up" is not asinine. It's just an opinion. At the end of the day, teams will play where the IHSAA tell them too. The IHSAA just told Snider that they are staying in 6a. It sounds like you want everyone associated with Snider to cry and whine about why they don't belong in 6a due to enrollment. Bottom line............they ARE in 6a and that's not going to change. Embrace the challenge and take on all comers. If a team from a school of 1800 is afraid to take on a team from a school of 5000, then they might as well turn in their equipment after week 9. Sorry if this offends you Temptation, but that's not the attitude at Snider and their goal this year is to win the 6a state championship. 

Again, good luck to the program you follow. Good luck to all. This debate is over. 

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

I work with 15-18 year olds daily in a diverse similar socioeconomic area compared to Snider.  I have developed a pretty solid rapport with my students.

What do you do for a living again?

That doesn't somehow make you an expert on how a kid who plays football for a school 100 miles away from you thinks. Young men where you are from might be taught about having things handed to them based on fairness. Some kids are taught to compete no matter what hand they are dealt. 

Anyway, your opinion is respected. Have a great night. 

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

It’s much easier to state FACTS and speak rationally when you don’t...

It's one thing to state facts based on records, scores, and past history. It's another to pretend to know what an 18 year old at a high school more than 100 miles away from you is thinking. 

5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

2.  I don’t follow a program.

Lol, ok, now this is starting to make some sense. 

Lol, sorry we've offended you Temptation. Good luck to the program you follow.

Much respect to Carmel and the rest of the MIC, it should be a great year. 

5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Hit up your local high school and pose this question because this is what it boils down to...

Kids, would you rather extend your season and play 15 games knowing you have a great shot at winning a state title?

OR

Kids, would you rather "play the best" and end your season a month earlier knowing that teams you previously have beaten are taking the above path?

You're delusional.

I used the New Pal/Carmel scenario for an example of the difference in enrollment.  Other than CG, schools in the lower 2000's in terms of enrollment have not proven they can play with the top dogs of 4/5k.  

Can it happen?  Sure.  But the deck is certainly stacked against it.

The deck is stacked against them, you are correct. But that is what makes the victory even sweeter when it does happen. You may be speaking for SOME programs, but not Snider. Snider has victories over Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, and Penn. They've tasted it and know they are capable. I can guarantee you they WANT that challenge. And don't forget, just two years ago Snider was one mistake away from WASTING Carmel late in the 3rd quarter and ended up losing by 2. You don't think they want another opportunity? That's delusional. 

17 minutes ago, XStar said:

Just because you can't fathom a world where winning a state championship, no matter what level of competition, isn't the end game for every player doesn't mean there aren't players who would rather take on a greater challenge than keep on going after the same one already conquered.  

I can't pretend to know what every kid would want to do.  I just know what I would want if I were in their shoes.  In your hypothetical you said if you were a kid choosing between playing Carmel or New Pal in semistate, you would undoubtedly choose New Pal.  Let's not forget that this isn't just any random team that would be in this scenario.  To be in that scenario, that team likely would have had just beaten New Pal a couple times on the way to state titles.  Given that, I would almost assuredly want a bigger/better challenge if it were me.  

Are there kids that think like you and just want the easiest path possible to a trophy?  I'm sure there are.  I don't think it's as one-sided as you seem to think though, especially on the teams that are good enough to actually be in that position.  

Good post.

Regarding Snider...…………...I know there was some disappointment bumping back up to 6a. ONLY because Dwenger got bumped up and this would be the FIRST time in that storied rivalry that they would have met in the playoffs. That disappointment is over and done with. Back to 6a and I can guarantee the Snider players are more than happy to knock heads with the likes of Homestead to have another crack at Carmel. If anyone thinks that kids at Snider are afraid at what Carmel brings to the table, they don't know the Snider program very well. New Pal? Been there done that. I'm pretty sure the Snider kids are excited for another 6a opportunity.

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

YOU are NOT on the team.  

And what does that have to do with anything?

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

This is starting to sound like a bunch of disconnected “good ole boys” who had some glory days and are delusional about today’s youth.

You mean the guys who support the athletic program by attending the games with their friends on Friday nights? Those guys? It doesn't make a difference who is on the team and who isn't. The fans are difference makers. No fans, no athletic program. All opinions matter my friend.

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

With the current format, a team like Snider would have to have a “once in a decade” type of outfit to beat a 6A power from the south.  

To beat "a" 6a power from the south? Or did you mean the BEST 6a power from the south? Snider has won against Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Fishers, and Hamilton Southeastern.............and they will again. As their enrollment gets smaller and the Indy Mega's get larger, the wins may be fewer and far between, but there will be wins. But to have a team that is better than EVERY Indy mega power? Your right, it might be a once in a decade thing. It used to be 6 years. Best team in the state  in 1986 (turnovers), 1992 (champs), 1997 (mud), 2004 (injuries), and possibly (I say this cautiously) 2015. Let's just stop pretending that Snider's not a factor in 6a anymore.

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

Be careful what you wish for.

As fans, we know the road to Lucas and actually win might be a once in a decade thing. Sure, a run to a 5a title is fun, but there is nothing like knocking heads against the likes of Carmel and Penn.  

Snider wins two sectionals in a row at the 6a level. They advance by defeating schools of 2300 students compared to their 1800. Congrats to them, now they get Carmel............5000.

I see both sides of the coin. I'm a firm believer that if you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. So bring on Carmel and their entire student body of 5000, it doesn't bother me as much as some others. I mean, just two years ago Snider was one mistake away from blowing Carmel out of the water. Carmel is the type of competition I personally like to see even though we've failed several times in a row against them.  I'm also aware that I am of the minority in my thought process. That being said, is the new rule (the one just implemented a month ago), good for high school football? Originally, I thought it was, but now I'm starting to wonder.

Overall, I do like the idea of the success factor. But I think you should dominate your class for 5 years before you bump up, then bump down after 3 for lack of success. Going 5 years instead of 2 shows that your dominance is a result of having a powerful program and not a rare abundance of athletes in one particular class.

The two year cycle is, for the most part, a punishment to the upcoming classes. A five year cycle makes more sense. And if a school has 5 state championships in the cycle, so what, they deserved it. Now go up a class for 3 years and try to do the same. If not, go back down where you belong according to your student body numbers.

33 minutes ago, psaboy said:

I will say Homestead is certainly due, but they always seem to choke vs Snider or Dwenger and/or lay an unexpected egg against Luers, Carroll or another mid level team. We will see. Can't wait for season to start less than four weeks now !!

I'm not sure choke is the right word. Snider just normally has a better team than Homestead.

My Top Ten is base on reality. I try not to get cute and make "outside the box" predictions (example: Snider placing 4th...........although possible, probably unlikely)

The Top - Any order is possible

1.     Snider - Maybe a little bit of bias, but if I were making a bet, this would be a pretty good place to start.

2.     Dwenger - The defending champs will normally be in my top two until another program proves worthy of that spot.

3.     Wayne - The Generals return a pretty solid core from a pretty good team from last year.

4.     Homestead - Number four in the SAC until they prove otherwise.

The Middle - Any order is possible

5.     Northrop - I have to put the big school in the #5 spot. Lot's of talent at Northrop and a pretty good coaching staff. Until the Doerffler's are gone, I see improvement every year.

6.     Carroll - Just because they are big school and have a pretty good head coach. And the fact that the SAC is stacked this year.

7.     Luers - I'm probably being a little hard on Luers at the #7 spot. With the addition of two 6a schools to the SAC, Top 4 just isn't a guarantee anymore. Good luck to them.

8.     Concordia - I think the Cadets will be solid this year. Mannigel has proven that he's a pretty good coach and his teams will be competitive every week.   

9.     North Side - Will they continue to improve in Coach Brevard's third season? If so, that would make NINE teams from the SAC with potential to knock off anyone else in any given week.

The Bottom

10.   South Side - The Archers are going to be awfully lonely at the bottom this year. I truly hope not for Coach Norfleets sake, but I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Conclusion

The SAC appears to be stacked this year 1-9. Look for some deep playoff runs from the Snider/Homestead winner, Dwenger, Wayne, and Luers. Every team in the SAC will be battle tested. Look for another year with a good non-conference record come playoff time.

Sectional 3 isn't Sectional 6, but it's not necessarily the weakest sectional in 6a either. If you are a sectional champion, then you have no business bumping down. The IHSAA was spot on with this new rule. The timing was interesting, but the rule is good for football.

I understand your point with regard to bumping up. Success, most times, runs in two year cycles. It's the rebuilding class that ends up playing in the a class they don't belong in. With regard to bumping UP, I agree, 2 years isn't enough to prove consistency. I'd rather see what happens over a four year span before determining whether a team should be bumped up or not.

Let's just drop the idea of playing up. No one's ever done it and no one ever will. It's pretty clear that AD's and coaches are content on playing where the IHSAA places them regardless of whether they are private, parochial, or public. We can argue playing up until we are exhausted...........it's not going to happen.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:02 AM, oldtimeqb said:

It’s really quite genius of the IHSAA. By putting Cathedral in 4A and Snider in 5A, we are arguing the uniform application of the ‘keep up’ rule.

In the meantime no one argues the stupidity of lowering it from 3 points to 2, or even the validity of a success factor rule. 

Genius. 

Certainly I'm missing something here. Why is it stupid for a team to "remain" after earning 2 points? Snider earned 2 points by winning sectional championships each year they were in 6a. A team that is good enough to win a sectional championship shouldn't be moving down a class.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 4:18 PM, Bobref said:

Of course it is. The conclusion, then, is that the only way New Pal can challenge themselves is to play up a class in the tourney. Why won’t they? 

They failed to get past sectionals two of the past four years. Despite having a 4a enrollment, they are right where they belong..........in 5a.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 5:22 PM, Bobref said:

Cathedral is where they are supposed to be, according to the IHSAA classification system, as modified by the success factor. They cannot, IMO, legitimately be criticized for that. 

Agree 100%. I've criticized Snider, Cathedral, and Luers in the past for not voluntarily bumping up. But I've changed my tune. If I'm the AD, one of my responsibilities is the financial stability of the Athletic Department. The further you go in the tournament, the more you have in ticket sales. Therefore, boosting the Athletic Department. NO SCHOLL will voluntarily bump up...............not going to  happen! AD's love the $$$$, Coaches love the hardware. Period.

17 hours ago, JQWL said:

I may be wrong on this but wasnt there a 5A team in recent history that won the state championship but had a losing record going into the tournament? I think this was prior to the 6A class.

Cathedral would get into the playoffs based on their strength of schedule.

I would be willing to debate the all-in format. But the blind draw? Nobody in their right mind can make any sense out of that. I could make a better case as to why Warren Central should add Indiana Deaf to there schedule than making any sense out of how the blind draw is better than a seeding system.  

2 hours ago, slice60 said:

So for all of you who want to change the Football tournament & force teams to "qualify", are you going to do that in every sport?

I sure hope so because it would be unfair to punish thousands of football players while giving every other student-athlete in Volleyball, Soccer, Baseball, BASKETBALL, etc the opportunity to win a Sectional/Regional/Semistate/State trophy for their school.

And while you're at it, are you going to make all of the Wrestlers, Gymnasts, Track & Field athletes etc meet some sort of criteria in order to participate in their respective Sectionals??? It's only fair that you potentially take away the post-season opportunity from every athlete & not just Football.

Are there any other sports that only have a nine game regular season? Every other sport allows their teams to schedule a variety of teams from different areas of the state throughout the season.

I don't think you are punishing anyone. If anything, you are making the regular season more exciting for the players by giving them something to compete for game in and game out. Just like the NFL and college, every game would be a playoff game. I would even go one step further and seed the playoffs, that way, even teams at the top have something to fight for. Do we really want to continue settling or the worlds dumbest playoff format? All in is one thing, the blind draw is another level of ridiculous.

Teams at the bottom are going to bow out after ten or eleven weeks anyway. So why not just let them schedule an opponent of similar skill level for that tenth game? It would also give teams in 5a and 6a an opportunity to play as many games as the teams in the other four classes. My last previous statement is debatable though. Coaches at the 5a and 6a level might appreciate the bye week for rest.

Replace the first round of Sectionals with a tenth game. Instead of getting humiliated in the first round, the 0-9 team can schedule an opponent that is more on their level.

Benefits:

1. No more embarrassing losses for teams that aren't playoff worthy in the first place.

2. The regular season actually means something.

3. Island conferences like the SAC can schedule an out of conference game.

I mean seriously, there is NO way the IHSAA can debate that the current format is better than a 10 game season and eliminating half the teams from the playoffs. The regular season actually means something in the NFL and college............why not high school?

1 hour ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it's Snider and Cathedral.

It has everything to do with the fact that they came out with the rule AFTER the football classifications and sectional assignments were created, but originally decided to implement it for Winter and Spring sports as mentioned previously in this thread. That does not make much sense, so the IHSAA is doing the right thing and implementing it for ALL sports starting next year.

Decisions like that normally aren't implemented overnight. I'm not complaining though, I felt all along that 6a was a better fit for Snider and 5a (at least) for Cathedral. And the rule is spot on. If you are a sectional champion, you shouldn't go down a class.