Footballking16

18 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I'm not really advocating a conference change...just understand DT's point.  I also know AD's have to think beyond football and bball.  Its an interesting discussion when weighing out pros and cons.  The MIC has a strong reputation (well earned) with football and over the years in hoops and track.  Very heavy in those 3 areas.  Typically not as strong in the other sports....and that is why Carmel and CG is typically #1 and #2 each semester in the all sports category.  I believe (opinion only) that the HCC would offer better competition in all sports....and is that good or bad for a Carmel or CG....probably can debate that one both ways.

Football is the revenue generator for the athletic department.....So I understand DT's point about revenue.  I would like to see the MIC travel better....But he's right....it isn't just Pike that travels poorly.  I also believe the HCC would travel better in all sports.

My bias is with the MIC....and I agree with you...love the flexibility of non-conference games and don't want to lose them.  But I can certainly understand why AD's have to look at revenue and cost when aligning with conferences.

Trust me, I get all that opposed to the blowhard above who doesn't think I do. But football and men's basketball are king in Indiana and that's what is attractive about the MIC. It would make little sense in my opinion to take a conference demotion which is exactly that if CG's moves to the HCC. The HCC is nowhere near the MIC's level in football and even further behind in basketball. It's like saying Alabama should leave the SEC for say the PAC 12 because the PAC 12 overall is stronger in all sports across the board. It would be preposterous.

10 hours ago, DT said:

No way Avon and brownsburg leave the HCC with CG and CA coming on board.  

Why? Especially given the above-mentioned proposal of a 12 team HCC?

Brownsburg and Avon get screwed playing in a hypothetical HCC South with Southport, Franklin Central, Columbus North, and Center Grove, and not just in football either. Brownsburg and Avon both fit better in the MIC anyway with geographical rivals in Pike and Ben Davis. 

1 hour ago, HoopsCoach said:

Take it a step further.  12 team HCC with north and south divisions.  Play the 5 in your division plus a week 9 crossover game for conference placing.  CG and Carmel moving out of the MIC would also make the MIC a 6 team conference.  That leaves 3 weeks open to schedule non-conference games for all 18 teams in the HCC and MIC, which gives them an opportunity to keep some existing rivalries (CG-Warren, Carmel-Warren, Carmel-BD).

HCC North

Carmel, Fishers, HSE, Noblesville, Westfield, Zionsville

HCC South

Avon, Brownsburg, Center Grove, Columbus North, Franklin Central, Southport

Week 9 championship and crossover games could see matchups like Carmel-Avon, CG-Fishers, Westfield-Southport, etc.  I am sure during some years, Carmel-CG would be a championship game.  An already established rivalry played for a conference championship to cap off the regular season.

The MIC would not remain a 6 team conference and CG and Carmel would almost assuredly be replaced instantly with Avon and Brownsburg likely getting the first two calls. 

19 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Both actually.  Thanks for asking.

So back to those numbers you were speaking of (as I just learned how to count)...

I get 15/16 odds in 6A north?  (93.8 percent)

I get 9/16 odds in 6A south?  (56.3 percent)

Carmel HAS to win 6A north or your whole bet is shot and even if they do, I get NINE of the 16 teams remaining in the south?

Man, I wish we'd actually put money on this one.  I bet @Coach Nowlinhas an idea...

Then I’ll gladly send you your very own “Proud winner of a gentleman’s bet” ribbon so you can wear with pride.

4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Nice edit of your post.  Makes perfect sense now.

 

How can you possibly misconstrue something so simple? Good thing this isn’t for real money because I doubt you can count it. What from my original claim is illegible? 

32 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

2019 is an anomaly in my opinion and I think when it’s all said and done there once again will be an all-MIC football and basketball title game.

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Football + basketball = TWO

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes an all-MIC final in both sports.

 

Both=two. What is so hard to understand about that?

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Don't move the goalposts now.  You said TWO all-MIC finals...

?

Read my post. An all-MIC final would mean two teams from the MIC playing each other for the state championship. It’s written clear as day.

13 minutes ago, Temptation said:

So just so we are clear, in FOOTBALL you get Carmel and I get the field in 6A north and you can have BD, WC, CG, NC, Pike, LN, LC in 6A south and I get the other 9 teams?

And even if you win that, we get to do it again in basketball season?

Where do I sign?

Yes an all-MIC final in both sports.

Just nod your head.

13 minutes ago, DT said:

The MIC is more myth than reality.  It is a very top heavy conference that is still riding on the reputation Ben Davis built for it in the 90s.

Laugh out freaking loud. Dude, the MIC has won 16 out of the last 19 state titles since the turn of the century. The MIC is STRONGER today than it was when Ben Davis was in a class of their own during the 90s.

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Gentlemen's bet?

Sure

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

But it is the "best conference in the state" for how much longer?  DT is implying that CG could stay ahead of the curve and get out before the obvious happens.  Its just a matter of time.

Brings me back to the point that I have made hijacking multiple threads these past few months...how long is the MIC honestly considered the best conference in the state?  The results this season, though incomplete, speak for themselves.  Is 2019 an anomaly, or the beginning of the shift?

I’ve been hearing that for YEARS. The MIC DOMINATES the two biggest sports, football and basketball, and it’s not close. And it’s not changing. Warren and BD aren’t going anywhere and Carmel is Carmel. I’d argue North Central, if it keeps on its current trajectory, is a ticking time bomb that can push all three of those schools once a solid feeder system has been established.

2019 is an anomaly in my opinion and I think when it’s all said and done there once again will be an all-MIC football and basketball title game.

4 minutes ago, DT said:

BD and WC bring nothing to the table financially for CG, and from a competitive standpoint, several HCC schools are competing at or near that level now consistently, and will only improve over time.

The HCC can make up its own conference bylaws.  If it wants to expand to 10 schools and play only 7 or 8 conference games, it can do that.  That would be the preferred option, in my view.  Play 7 league games and 2 con cons, or 8 and 1.  8 and 1 might be optimal.  

Carmel just might be too big for the HCC model.  CG fits perfectly.  Personally, Id like to see CG and Columbus North join the conference.  

 

We’re talking about high school sports here, not major D1 athletics. Opting out of the best conference in the state because you’ll sell more hot dogs and hot chocolate to Zionsville and Fishers fans isn’t it.

8 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Photo was taken right before the Trojans come through the tunnel and game start.  Less than 5 minutes prior to start.  I was at the game...attendance didn't change much.

DT does make an interesting point....travel in the MIC is not overly impressive.  (excluding Carmel and CG)  The non-conference game this year with New Pal will bring in the most visiting fans by far.  I'm not sure how much the home team pockets from $6 a person, but I can see where it adds up.  CG only has 4 home games this year during regular season.

If Carmel and CG make the move to the HCC it will become a 10 team conference you're regular season schedule is locked in. Would mean 5 home games one year and 4 the next. Imagine CG's home games being Noblesville, Westfield, Franklin Central, and Fishers and not being able to play Warren or Ben Davis on top of non-conference opponents such as Cathedral and New Pal who I assure you are bringing more fans than the majority of the HCC opponents.

4 minutes ago, DT said:

I've seen many games at CG, in person and on live stream.  The only school that travels anywhere near as well as CG in The MIC is Carmel.  The BD and WC crowds are particularly disappointing.  

HCC fans, parents and followers share the same demographic and socio economic profile with both CG and CA.  Most of The MIC schools do not, hence the huge attendance gap.

It is what it is.

CG leaving lots of dollars on the table.  

Jon Zwitt is a sharp guy.  He wont let that go on forever.

 

Center Grove also handcuffs themselves to an exclusive HCC schedule. This means no flexibility in scheduling non-conference opponents and off the table are guaranteed games with premier programs such as Ben Davis and Warren Central as well as Cathedral who've they played the last 4 or 5 seasons. Those are Center Grove's measuring sticks. Not worth it in the least if you ask me.

6 minutes ago, DT said:

Read my post dude.  I didn't say "hundreds of thousands" per year.  

Take your 20K and extrapolate over CGs life in The MIC.  You get a much bigger number.

You are always too quick to jump to conclusions.

Be more thoughtful my friend.

 

I'm not extrapolating anything. You're using a picture for one game from the least travelled fan base in the MIC who plays at Center Grove every other year as a reason why Center Grove should pack its bags and move out of the best conference in the state, and arguably the Midwest.

Next.

2 minutes ago, DT said:

The HCC would give a nut to have CG.  

I'm sure they would.

Just as I'm sure Center Grove is perfectly content in playing in the most competitive and talented conference in the state. 

42 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I'ts really not as bad as it looks . We barely lost to the #1 ranked 4A team in the state . Look what the #1 5A team did to Center Grove . The same Center Grove team that waxed BD . So Is BD on the contraction list too?

May have missed the sarcasm

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Then why did the Archdiocese supposedly think it had the authority to declare Brebeuf "no longer a Catholic school"?

Sounds like a job for the Pope to straighten this out.

 

 

The Archdiocese not recognizing Brebeuf as a catholic school has no bearing on Brebeuf's catholic affiliation. Brebeuf is still recognized as a catholic school by the Jesuit order and the Jesuit's are the ones who run and fund Brebeuf. Brebeuf doesn't need the Archdiocese and vice versa. 

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

So the "Catholic authority" if you will of the Jesuit order trumps that of an Archdiocese?  Sorry,  just trying to understand the Catholic hierarchy/bureaucracy here.

 

Brebeuf isn't an Archdiocesan school.

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I wouldn't say "hundreds of thousands" but over time it would as Noblesville and Westfield would travel much better than Pike and the other MIC schools.

You think Noblesville and Westfield are filling those bleachers? I was at the Cathedral-Noblesville game to kick off the year and Noblesville had a porous showing from its own home crowd. A 70-80 mile roundtrip down to Greenwood isn't going to solve their problems either.

It makes sense for Carmel to join the HCC as they have plenty of geographical rivals, Center Grove, not so much.  

1 hour ago, DT said:

CG likely loses $2000 to $4000 per game in lost gate revenues and concessions, relative to what they contribute to opposition coffers while on the road.  

Multiply that by 5 or 6 home gates per year and then extrapolate over the Trojans tenure in the conference.  The numbers add up.  

Are you just fudging numbers now? If both teams moved to the HCC that'd leave 10 team and no open dates for a non-conference opponent (extra home games). Would mean at most Center Grove is playing 5 home regular season games a year and a minimum of 4. Take your highest number at $4,000, multiply that by 5 home games and you're at $20,000, nowhere near the "hundreds and thousands of dollars" you're eluding too. 

There is no doubt that Pike is the least travelled team in the MIC and Center Grove is easily their furthest opponent. But Center grove hosts Pike every other year. You really think replacing Pike with say Noblesville or Westfield with North Central is really going to put "hundreds and thousands of dollars" back into the pockets of Center Grove? You're dreaming.

Appreciate the effort of yet another highly debated thread, but using a made up sticking point/unverified number isn't going to get you anywhere.

12 minutes ago, DT said:

 

The above photo shows the visitors side bleachers during the Pike at Center Grove game this past week.

Pretty pathetic

Center Grove has the most beautiful football facility in the state with a raucous atmosphere and the best hospitality you can ever find.  CG and Carmel both travel very well to opposing MIC schools.  Why wont the MIC schools return the favor?

This was a heck of a ballgame.  Pike is rapidly improving, and CG held on for a 24-21 win.  Why wont the Pike parents come out and support their kids?  

This has been going on for years.  Both CG and Carmel have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in gate revenue due to poor MIC visiting crowds.

Both schools, IMO, should bolt the MIC and join the Hoosier Crossroads while there are still two open spots to take in the HCC.  

It's not right that CG pads the coffers of LN, LC, BD, WC and Pike, and those schools do not reciprocate in any way.

Time to bold trojans and Greyhounds.  Westfield, Fishers, HSE, Brownsburg, Avon, Zionsville, Franklin Central and maybe even Noblesville fans will fill the visiting CG bleachers for years to come.  

Also worth noting that this picture is still relatively light out and there is nobody out on the field warming up. Perhaps this was taken around 6-6:30? A half hour to an hour before a 7pm kickoff? The trip from Pike township to Greenwood on Friday after 5 isn't exactly the easiest drive in the world. Either way, this doesn't amount to "hundreds and thousands of dollars" in lost revenue. 

7 minutes ago, DT said:

This has been going on for years.  Both CG and Carmel have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in gate revenue due to poor MIC visiting crowds.

Hundreds and thousands of dollars? Link? Or is this DT speak?

36 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

But I thought Brebeuf was no longer a Catholic institution, at least according to the Indy Archdiocese :  https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/08/05/brebeuf-jesuit-appeals-split-catholic-church-barred-holding-mass/1920187001/

 

 

It's definitely Catholic as it is still recognized by the Jesuit order, it just isn't recognized by the Archdiocese of Indianapolis.

2 minutes ago, DT said:

How do you know that with 100% certainty?

What are you asking? You asked if this was Radtke's biggest win? I don't believe so, that's my opinion. The only person who can say with 100% certainty is Radtke himself, anything else is just speculation either way. I'm of the opinion that somebody who has won 300+ football games, including a state title, a semi-state title, and multiple and sectional/regional titles is going to tell you beating a 3-4 team in the regular season doesn't pale in comparison to any of those championship accolades. Again, my opinion. 

5 minutes ago, DT said:

Since 1994, Penn's NIC record is 144-3.  Id say the NP win was quite monumental, regardless of the Penn rebuild situation.

 

It can still be a monumental win and still not be the biggest win of Radtke's career. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Why can't we acknowledge that NP's win over Penn as a legacy win while also acknowledging that it isn't Radtke's "biggest win" of his career? It isn't. Not by a mile.