Footballking16

21 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

That is tough news about Cam.  Let's hope he heals quickly.  Tough blow for these young men and their teams.  

General consensus was there was more concern about the upcoming basketball season so take that for what it’s worth. He’s an exceptional 3 sport athlete who also stars for the baseball team?

11 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Tough for this young team to finish....eliminating the NP loss, the other 4 Trojan losses have occurred by an average of 5.5 points, the largest spread being 7 points.  Teams have to learn how to win.

Doesn't get any easier with the opening sectional game at Columbus East next week.  Let's hope the tough learning during this season pay off down the stretch.  Trojan Pride!!

Congrats Irish....stay healthy and make a run!!!

Bright future for CG. Was shocked at how many non-seniors were starting and contributing. 

Defense was very good. Cathedral O had been humming all year and outside 2 big plays were really limited. Thanks for the kudos and good luck to the Trojans the rest of the way.

On a side note, pretty disheartening to see Cam Jordan in a boot last night. Murmur in the crowd wasn’t good on prognosis. Offense looked anemic and somewhat predictable at times without his big play ability to stretch the field.

30 minutes ago, Trojanmp52 said:

from what I could see from the webcast on the PF the first one that was off setting was the right call not sure about it being off setting but their was something there,

the other ones form  what I had  seen and in my opinion was not any thing that would warrant  a call  unless it something that  was said.  I did the chains of the freshman

games for CG a few time this year and one thing I would do was talk to the side judge.  I did to it to try and learn how they decide to make calls and one thing I learned is  that there is

a push to clean up the cursing and the use of a few keys word will bring a flag quick

Their was a lot of bad calls both ways so I am glad it still was a good game

 

I agree with this. It wasn’t bad officiating by any means, in terms of miscalled, just excessive. I counted 11 dead ball personal foul penalties against Cathedral and thought maybe 2 were warranted. These games are always physical but I thought the refs put their foot down way too early and often. I think Cathedral had 3 consecutive personal fouls called against them on CG’s opening drive in the 2nd half.

4 minutes ago, Olympian06 said:

Good game by both teams. Congrats to the Irish. 

Flag filled game. 20 penalties between the two teams and well over 200 yards in penalties.

Cathedral 14

Center Grove 9

Final

1 hour ago, Thor77 said:

48 on the roster and that’s one of the best I’ve ever seen. And that’s out of at best 180 boys, which the number is probably less because some recent grades haven’t had as many boys. 

I’m also guessing that’s 9-12 correct? 48 in the whole program, freshman dress varsity?

24 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Because the size of the school in the end analysis really isn't that important,  that's why.  I believe it to be more like a bell curve in terms of competitive advantage, not exponential like you seem to believe.  Unless your are an OUTLIER of course............

Look at Sagarin. Obviously there are outliers (and that's why the success factor exists) but there's a reason why the large majority of the teams rated at the top of Sagarin are the largest enrollment schools and a reason why the large majority of the teams rated at the bottom of Sagarin are the smallest enrollment schools, and it's because NUMBERS MATTER.

Yes you'll see outliers like Chatard, Cathedral, Brebeuf, etc at the top punching above their weight, just like you'll see some 4A schools like Frankfort or Shelbyville near the bottom, but if you scan the ratings from 1-320, you'll notice on average it's accurately reflected based on enrollment.

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Please explain this numbers argument.  Chatard brings say 45-50 to the sideline, Carmel being a mega school brings what, 400?  Come now.........................

And you haven't really logically explained that reason, yet.

You can only bring X amount of players to the sidelines for a tournament game (or at least that was the rule 10 or so years ago when I played), and that number was 75. While Chatard can bring 75 to the sidelines, they're only picking from a pool 350 boys. Whereas, say a school like Carmel can bring 75 to the table but they're choosing from 2,000 boys, and Chatard punches above their weight every year and are still at a huge disadvantage.

Now do this with a school like South Adams whom I'm willing to bet doesn't even have 75 boys in their entire program to begin with, expecting them to go up against a school like Penn who could field 2 varsity teams if they wanted too. How in the hell do you not see the difference there? South Adams should have to play in a tournament with a team like Penn because they're better than a team like Springs Valley? This is the single dumbest argument on the GID.

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So only Cathedral gets the opportunities to be an "OUTLIER"?  Why can't the likes of South Adams get that sort of shot?

 

Has South Adams ever been bumped up due to the success factor? If South Adams can't get bumped from 1A under the current format, how in the hell do you expect/think it's fair they compete in a tournament with the likes of Penn, Noblesville, and Southport?

51 minutes ago, JustRules said:

I've always thought the all-in random draw format was the worst possible format out there. Then TIFootball comes along with a state championship from the bottom 64 teams in the state using some type of ranking. That is definitely worse. I'm glad he/she came around to the qualify and split option instead. Not great but better than his original option.

To be fair to Muda....he's been crowing about this awful format for years. 

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

A non-answer.  And you stubbornly seem to stick to the notion that the higher a school enrollment's the higher the competitiveness of that school's football program.  Hasn't the like of your precious Cathredral proved that notion wrong, time and time and time again?

Yesterday I posted the following:

Nobody seems to want to take that on, probably because it is just easy to assume the smaller a school's overall enrollment is then the less competitive it's football program must be.

 

I already answered your question. Cathedral is an OUTLIER. That's why they are playing up a class. Just because Cathedral (an outlier) can punch above their weight, doesn't mean every other team can. That's why the success factor exists. I can't dumb this down anymore.

2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I think where @Footballking16 was going with this is that, if you had an all-in type tournament that started by taking the top teams and placing them in a Gold level, just for naming purposes and to get away from enrollment classifications, and the next in a Silver level, and the next in a Bronze, by the time you got down to the Lead level you'd be dealing with a division that would have a lot of 0-fer and 1-fer-2-fer teams that would be in that division and you have them playing all the way up to Thanksgiving and occupying a time slot at LOS Thanksgiving weekend.

More or less, yes. Who would support that? That's watering down the postseason. It's dull and unexciting. Yes the the Gold and Silver and maybe Bronze (for practical purposes) would be good tournaments but the overall interest in high school football from a fan and even more importantly a player perspective would significantly decrease.

2 minutes ago, TIFootball said:

So maybe a better option is to qualify, then split. I can support that.

Yes I've been very vocal in that regard. Go to a rating system that effectively cuts the field in half at the end of the regular season.

3 minutes ago, TIFootball said:

I understand your point, but don't totally agree. So if I understand, you think we should go to a qualifying metric and not include all teams in tournament play? I could support that.

yes

3 minutes ago, TIFootball said:

I do not agree that anything gets watered down more than it already is. For some, I can see where they would think that after being power houses in lower class for years (SF does help - but only to a point). I would argue the opposite. I think it would bring more competitiveness as teams could compete. Would the lower class be a watered down version of Indiana football - sure just as it is now, but the upper echelon of teams would make for 2-3 highly engaging tournaments.

When you have a tournament with the worst 64 teams in the state and one is ultimately crowned a state champion, your postseason is watered down

4 minutes ago, TIFootball said:

Enrollments are manipulated by recruiting and open enrollment - time to end the manipulation.

To an extent, but not nearly enough to game the system. I will assure you private schools aren't capping their enrollments to stay in a lower class for athletic purposes.

1 minute ago, TIFootball said:

Keep in mind - as Ive stated, this is first look and the fomula would need to be improved to catch some outliers... However, They wouldn't according to Saragin and the cut off of each tourney. Heck, New Pal is one of the top teams in the state and would play in the "6a" tourney. Matter of fact, Dwenger, New Pal, and Cathedral would all be in the top tournament. Brownstown would be playing in the "4a" tournament.

I totally get that. But you're going to kill off the rooting interest of Indiana high school doing it this way. You're going to be crowing 2-3 state champions a year who have no business being in a postseason tournament to begin with and you're going to completely water down the level of play and excitement. Teams like Dwenger and Chatard are usually good enough to be in the top 32 of Sagarin and would play in the best tournament, but they would have no virtual shot of winning a title due to numbers. It's not fair to either of those successful schools.

Classifications are based on enrollment for a reason. Obviously there are some teams who are vastly better than others of similar size, and the ones that are get promoted to the next level. It's the fairest and most practical way to keep competitive balance alive. 

Just now, Muda69 said:

And yet yesterday I asked you why you so firmly believe this.  You still have yet to answer.

Because that isn't right for South Adams or any school for that matter. The goal of any postseason tournament is to crown the best team. Making a tournament for the 64 worst teams in the state where one inevitably is going to be crowned a state champion while a successful team like South Adams has to play against schools 10x their enrollment ain't right. How hard is that to comprehend? 

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

But, but, according to some on this forum using Sagarin you could have a tournament where a school of 300 has to play a school of 3000.  Is that fair?

 

Correct.

There should never be a tournament where a successful school like South Adams has to play against a school like Penn, which would be the case this year if the tournament was based on Sagarin rating and not enrollment. If South Adams become too successful, they should be promoted to the next flight of competition playing against with 500-600 kids. Good thing we already have this and it is known as the success factor.

3 minutes ago, TIFootball said:

lol - Saragin Ratings is a first look - not a final decider.

I will say this = Do I think a 3a Brownstown Central team could beat a 5a (use to be 6a) Jeffersonville team - ABSOLUTELY!

They absolutely could beat Jeffersonville, but that doesn't mean Brownstown should have to play in a tournament with schools like Dwenger, New Pal, and Cathedral simply because they're better than Jeffersonville.

4 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Indiana seems to have the right amount of teams & a relatively small geographic area in order to have ALL-IN high school postseason tournaments in every team sport. States like OH, IL, CA have too many schools.

If you change the football tournament so that teams must "qualify" for the postseason tournament, then (in my opinion) it's only fair to do that in every other team sport. There's no way the IHSAA will ever do that.

So I will never understand why so many Indiana high school football supporters want to take away something good from Indiana high school football players.

Who is taking anything away from anybody? You should have to earn your way into the postseason? No? I mean it's not like it's done that way all over the country at every level....oh wait. We had to qualify for the playoffs back in CYO ball as 10 and 11 year olds. Never once felt I was being deprived of anything when we didn't make. That's the way it goes.

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Kokomo fans don't tend to travel far from their home tavern.  Just saying........................

 

I know. 400 people at a high school football game would be a travesty, especially at neutral site. Has disaster written all over it. 

1 minute ago, Gipper said:

Possibly, but isn't Warren on the East side--how convenient is that to the major roads? 

It's right off 70, very accessible. Both schools would be losing money after costs to rent Warren Central's field with that kind of attendance. 

40 minutes ago, DT said:

Kokomo vs Bloomington at Warren Central on a Saturday afternoon. 

Might be 400 people there

4 minutes ago, Bobref said:

The concept of the Cluster system was, and remains, valid. The implementation was fatally flawed because the rules did not allow enough teams to qualify, leading to inequitable results. Expand the number of teams getting in, and problem solved.

Ohio has more or less a "cluster system" just a bigger version. I love their format.

4 regions, 8 teams per region. Each region seeded 1-8, winner of Winner of region 1/2 plays winner of region 3/4 for the finals. 

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Maybe.  Then football could move from being sponsored primarily by government schools to a club model, which is really where it belongs. 

I knew it.....

1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

HARD PASS

 

Selfishly speaking 

What about Pittsburgh? 

works for me....pushes IU to the West

16 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I am.  Along with promotion/relegation.

Yep.  Get better then move up to a higher classification bracket where the the competition is tougher, regardless of enrollment.

You would effectively kill any rooting interest of high school football in the state of Indiana in a few years with this system.

1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

Again, I think the state could improve the quality of the playoffs with seeding teams....you believe elimination of teams is warranted prior to the playoffs.  Guessing we are simply not going to align.  I just know with many excellent teams....they can be on a roll at the end of a season....and also hate that injuries be the reason a high school kid doesn't experience that stage.

I agree with you there, but seeding is a by-product of a qualifier. If teams were seeded accordingly, you would see 100+ blowouts the opening round of sectionals and you’d have to ask yourself, “why do we include these teams”.

If you seed the sectionals to preserve the better games for later rounds, it’s going to be a charade.

3 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

So looking at Roncalli's 2002 team....they won games their 3 in-state games over unranked teams with a combined 13-21 record, but lost to some pretty good teams in the regular season....and that's good enough for a playoff qualifier?  And that is helping the quality of football how??

Would be interesting to see under your format who would actually be eliminated......

Again, I think the state could improve the quality of the playoffs with seeding teams....you believe elimination of teams is warranted prior to the playoffs.  Guessing we are simply not going to align.  I just know with many excellent teams....they can be on a roll at the end of a season....and also hate that injuries be the reason a high school kid doesn't experience that stage.

My format for a qualification system:

-add tenth regular season game

-eliminate half the field using a rating system that calculates W-L, opp W-L, SOS (including out of state), Opp SOS (including out of state) adding a caveat that a team must win 40% of their regular season games to qualify

I will submit brackets after the conclusion of Friday's game using Calpreps as the rating system