Footballking16

10 minutes ago, DT said:

Im surprised that you would feel the tournament is watered down.

I guess looking at it from the mountain top where Cathedral sits as Indiana's all time winningest football program supposedly gives you that perspective.

If you truly feel that there is participation equity in the 6A tournament, then more power to you.  Cathedral certainly has been given the opportunity to work the system as well or better than any program in the state, bouncing up and down and back and forth between classifications over the years.  Im sure schools like Warsaw and Castle and Merrillville would love to have the opportunities and the flexibility that the Irish currently enjoy.  

You can’t appease everyone, that isn’t the goal of a postseason. It’s to crown a champion. 

You’ve established this argument that the 6A tournament is some sort MIC championship without realizing that splitting the divisions in half by enrollment only furthers the MIC dominance. Imagine having to hear about Carmel/Ben Davis/Warren AND Center Grove winning a state title every year? Does anything really change?

As far Cathedral goes, what does Cathedral have to do with enrollment disparity in 6A? 

1 minute ago, DT said:

I have forwarded our discussion regarding proposed changes to Class 6A to Commissioner Cox.  Will update you all on his response and feedback when he gets back to me.

 

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

You call me stupid, yet bring nothing of substance to the table to rebuttal my post. Go to bed, get some rest, and think of something intelligent to say in the morning. Goodnight. 

LOL. You called me mentally challenged for not thinking class 6A should be split into 2 divisions.

You lost any credibility before you hit submit reply.

There’s ZERO need to further split the classes. It’s watered down as is.

12 minutes ago, DT said:

As discussed previously, Oklahoma crowns 9 state champs in a state with half the population of Indiana.

Oklahoma makes their teams qualify for the postseason and 2 or 3 of their 9 classes are comprised of 7 and 9 man football, something Indiana doesn’t offer.

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Dating back to 1978.

Carmel.....9 state titles. Ben Davis.....9 state titles. Warren Central.....9 state titles. Penn.....5 state titles. Those are 4 of the top 5 largest enrollment schools (mega-schools). 

Bloomington South, Castle,Center Grove,  Columbus East, & Snider (non mega-schools).....8 combined. 

And you think the topic of the thread is lunacy? You can seriously maintain that 6a doesn't need to be fixed?  Center Grove..........bla, bla, bla. Snider has an impressive track record too (although, according to you, have no chance against the New Pal, Cathedral, and Center Grove's of the world). By and large (taking Center Grove and Snider out of the equation), there is a problem. Not sure how one can be so blind not to see this. 

 

 

They already addressed the competitive balance by adding a 6th class you dolt. The next step is to play 180 bowl games at the conclusion of the regular season and give the winner a blue ring and the loser a red ring. Two classes of 16 teams is ABSURD.

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

No point in trying to explain this to the mentally challenged. 

Lol. So now I’m mentally challenged for not pandering to the lunacy of the thread title?

We don’t need 7 state champions between 300 some schools. That’s idiocy. We already let every team in the tournament to begin with, the idea of crowning 2 separate champions in a class of 32 teams is nonsense. It waters down the entire thing.

If a team like Center Grove can punch above their weight for nearly 2 decades, there surely is a blue print to follow. 

DT for the life of me I just don’t understand your rationale and lack of common sense, let alone the way you unintentionally contradict yourself.

For nearly two years you’ve been crowing about Center Grove and Carmel leaving the decaying MIC to join the rapidly growing suburban conference HCC, to on the eve of yet another all-MIC 6A finals do a complete 180 and advocate two declining township schools leave their geographical roots to join some budding conference?

What gives?

17 minutes ago, DT said:

Based on current and future enrollment trends, CG looks like a D1 school over the long term.

Keep in mind, CG entered the tournament this year with a 4-5 record.  They are more susceptible to downturns than are the megaschools, due to sheer numbers availability.

The lure of a 6A D2 state title will continue to incent programs like Snider, Warsaw, Homestead, Merrillville, Jefferson, etc to invest in program improvement.  

I think long term they would be on the cusp every enrollment cycle. Westfield currently has the 22nd largest enrollment and is growing rapidly and will soon pass Center Grove.

Center Grove also entered the tournament without one of the best RB’s in the state playing a single down the entire regular season. Something to think about.

Schools like LC and LN are forgotten being bottom feeders in a very strong MIC. Do we not believe they wouldn’t rise to the top if either team avoided a Warren/BD/CG sectional/regional/SS path? 

5 minutes ago, DT said:

The split division proposal is not designed to limit championship opportunities for The MIC, it is designed to elevate championship opps for low enrollment 6A schools.  

The 6A championship game has been a very exclusive club since its inception.  The IHSAA knows this and should act to correct this format error.

Does that really change under your new proposal? You’re not limiting opportunities for the MIC, you’re extending them. You talk about MIC dominance now, wait till they’re represented in two different divisions.

You’re still going to get a 6A D1 finals pairing with Carmel playing Warren/BD and then you’re going to get a D2 finals with Center Grove and whatever team from the North that ends up getting blown out.

How does that solve anything!

5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Agree on Valpo.

Zionsville = the LOWEST free and reduced PUBLIC school in Indiana...

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Valparaiso?

Valpo is 6A by enrollment but was in 5A due to Columbus East and the success factor. My guess is that Valpo as the smallest enrollment school in 6A likely makes it to semi-state and gives Carmel a better game than Homestead.

Zionsville was the smallest true 6A school in the tournament this year, upset the #1 team in the state, and won a sectional.

Per usual, I think DT talks just to talk.

1 minute ago, DT said:

If the MIC sweeps then so be it.

Small 6A is the last group of schools who are basically without representation in the state finals.  The two division format addresses that inequity and is another step towards the achievement of competitive balance.

There are many schools that are doing what it tales to be a champion but are left behind due to the current structure.  They deserve a chance to make it to the big stage just as much as the mega schools do.  

 

Wasn’t Center Grove just in the state finals? A bottom half 6A enrollment school?

On 11/27/2019 at 11:15 AM, DT said:

http://www.ossaa.net/docs/2018-19/Classifications/FB_2018-19_1819Classifications.pdf

 

Given the mega schools stranglehold on the 6A tournament, it is time to revisit this classification and propose changes that create a more balanced and fair process to determine the big school state football champion.

I lived in Oklahoma for several years and Okies take their high school football very seriously.  Oklahoma has a lot of similarities to Indiana in terms of size, population distribution and city structure.  Their post season tournament is class structured, with the major difference being that not all schools qualify for post season play.

Oklahoma has a mega school problem similar to what we see in Indiana.  A small cluster of schools in Tulsa dominate the big classification, with Jenks and Union basically being the Ben Davis and Warren Central of Oklahoma.  Other mega schools like Broken Arrow and Owasso (Carmel and Center Grove) are also regularly in the mix.

Like Indiana, Oklahoma's largest classification is 6A.  Unlike Indiana, Oklahoma has split its largest class into two divisions.  6A Division 1 for the top 16 schools in enrollment and 6A Division 2 for the schools 17-32 in enrollment.

I would like to see Indiana adopt this structure for the all in post season 6A tournament.  All 32 6A teams will play 10 regular season games, take a bye week, then play a 4 week tournament in two separate divisions to determine 2 state champions in the biggest classification.  This model will allow the 6A title games to remain on TG weekend.  We would likely see 4 games on Friday and 3 games on Saturday.  

6A is the most exclusionary class in the tournament given the massive enrollment discrepancies we see today.  The new classification based on current enrollment would look  like this :

Class 6A Division 1

 Carmel High School 1282 1299 1174 1245 5000 AAAAAA 1 2211 Ben Davis High School 1225 1094 1035 1008 4362 AAAAAA 2 3444 North Central (Indpls.) High School 946 1000 948 878 3772 AAAAAA 3 4333 Warren Central High School 981 993 911 851 3736 AAAAAA 4 5555 Penn High School 788 867 876 814 3345 AAAAAA 5 6777 Pike High School 860 853 824 769 3306 AAAAAA 6 7 9 14 22 Fishers High School 853 815 848 734 3250 AAAAAA 7 8666 Lake Central High School 795 837 819 768 3219 AAAAAA 8 9888 Hamilton Southeastern HS 836 778 787 717 3118 AAAAAA 9 10 10 12 14 Avon High School 735 802 699 655 2891 AAAAAA 10 11 11 10 15 Noblesville High School 785 752 716 629 2882 AAAAAA 11 12 12 11 13 Crown Point High School 684 730 678 671 2763 AAAAAA 12 13 13 13 11 Franklin Central High School 716 716 639 588 2659 AAAAAA 13 14 16 18 23 Brownsburg High School 685 705 621 618 2629 AAAAAA 14 15 14 9 9 Portage High School 658 691 576 595 2520 AAAAAA 15 16 15 17 18 Center Grove High School 662 606 622 610 2500 AAAAAA 16 17 19 20 16

Class 6A Division 2

Lawrence North High School 640 666 572 591 2469 AAAAAA 17 18 20 23 21 Perry Meridian High School 607 641 519 584 2351 AAAAAA 18 19 18 21 24 Homestead Senior High School 592 598 571 587 2348 AAAAAA 19 20 17 15 10 Lawrence Central High School 603 623 586 528 2340 AAAAAA 20 21 24 28 36 Carroll (F.W.) High School 602 592 580 506 2280 AAAAAA 21 22 21 19 17 Merrillville High Sch 570 578 544 522 2214 AAAAAA 22 23 26 26 26 Southport High School 576 583 522 504 2185 AAAAAA 23 24 25 25 30 Warsaw Community HS 540 579 536 521 2176 AAAAAA 24 25 34 40 47 Westfield High School 577 538 560 471 2146 AAAAAA 25 26 22 22 20 F.W. Northrop High School 506 531 519 541 2097 AAAAAA 26 27 27 24 27 Valparaiso High School 561 556 499 466 2082 AAAAAA 27 28 29 30 34 Chesterton Senior High School 536 531 516 493 2076 AAAAAA 28 29 23 27 28 Jeffersonville High School 515 554 541 456 2066 AAAAAA 29 30 33 32 25 Lafayette Jefferson High School 591 511 483 446 2031 AAAAAA 30 31 28 29 32 Columbus North High School 515 548 497 457 2017 AAAAAA 31 40 42 39 31 F.W. Snider High School 470 474 455 451 1850 AAAAAA 32

The MIC plays great football, but the 6A tournament has basically become the MIC Conference Championship Game.

Would be good for overall fan interest to get some new schools into LOS with a chance to hoist a state championship trophy.

 

 

 

 

Wait, so you’d want 2 MIC teams to win state titles? Talk about irony here. And if it wasn’t a MIC school winning the Division 2 title, it’d be a 5A team like New Pal or Cathedral (technically 4A by enrollment) bumped up due to the success factor.

Anyways, what was all the talk earlier this year about the HCC overtaking the MIC. You mean to tell me that isn’t the case now?

4 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

The love that shovel pass inside the 5 yard line.  Have all year.  I agree with running the ball more.  And I get why they went for those FG, points were at a premium at the time.  But what a momentum swing. Missed FG, 35 yard pass, long TD run . . . game over!

Agree and I don’t get it. They did the same thing against Chatard earlier in the season and it’s part of the reason why they only scored 3 points on 3 red zone trips in the first half. It caught up to them this time.

2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

How is it embarrassing for Cathedral fans? You're playing the #1 team in Class 5A one of the best teams in the State. A coaching staff that is 86-4. Their team had some key turnovers forced by New Pal and New Pal took advantage being very opportunistic. I don''t see any of that being embarrassing.at all. Just a tough game between two great teams.

No shame in losing to New Pal, not only a very talented team but an extremely well-coached but very disciplined team.

That being said, I just think the playing calling left more to be desired. A few examples:

-after New Pal scored on the opening drive, Cathedral didn’t flinch and moved the ball right down the field. After a big 4th down conversion, Cathedral has 1st and G from the 7. After a 5 yard gain up the middle to the 2, Cathedral (with the biggest offensive line in the state) runs a shovel pass. Receiver trips over the back of one of his lineman for a 4 yard loss. They settle for a FG.

-after dominating the first half, Cathedral comes out of halftime and throws an incompletion on 1st down and then an INT on 2nd down. Why not methodically run the ball down New Pal’s throat like they had been doing all game?

-after turning NP over, Cathedral once again methodically drives down the field and has 1st and G. Again, run north and south and not east-west. Punch it in and NP is down 2 scores and in uncharted territory nearing the end of the 3rd quarter.

Credit New Pal, but Cathedral had multiple opportunities to blow that game open and didn’t. You still have to execute, but I don’t think some of the play calling put Cathedral in the best position to win.

3 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

NP got it at the 20 (touchback after a missed FG). Next play was a sack to the 14, then a 35-yard pass to Roudebush to midfield (IMO, the real turning-point play of the game), then Spegal's 50-yard run after a short gain. 

Agreed. Honestly thought it was a poorly thrown ball into the wind that kind of hung up there but the Cathedral DB played the receiver and not the ball. Thought there was a chance it may be high pointed with Cathedral going the other way. Huge momentum swing after the previous two plays.

Back breaker was the Cathedral fumble on the ensuing drive. After that it was lights out.

11 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Tonight, carries 1-19 for Spegal: 97 yards, 1 TD
Carries 20-30: 188 yards, 3 TD with runs of 50, 31 and 64. 

Pretty telling stat.
 

Carry 1 went for about 60 yards and the Irish did a phenomenal holding him in check up until late in the third quarter. Cathedral not being able to punch the ball in from 1st and G from the 5 is going to haunt the Irish for some time. I really believe had the Irish gone up 2 scores you effectively take Spegal out of the game and force the New Pal offense to throw the ball down the field.

3 minutes ago, DragonWizard08 said:

What's wrong with that statement? Lotta guilty consciences in here....

Because it’s completely unnecessary 

Just now, Donnie Baker said:

Joined last week, probably just a shit-stirrer. I swear to God he is. How many yards did Spiegels have?

A lot. Would guess close to 200 alone the last 12-13 minutes.

52 minutes ago, DragonWizard08 said:

Looks like money can't buy everything, Cathedral

What is that comment? C’mon

1 minute ago, CaptainHook said:

go dragons

Your boy is a player.

28 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Amazing,  Irish going in to go up 17-7, miss a FG and few mistakes later it's a 4 score game

Wow! Talk about the wheels coming off.

New Pal’s the better team. Nothing you can say.

My only gripe was with the play calling. When you have a team like New Pal on the ropes, you gotta knock em out. Call me old school, but for the life of me just can’t figure out why Cathedral decides to get cute on the goal line.

Hats off Dragons.

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I can only imagine.  Is alcohol allowed on the premises?

Allowed? It's a high school Muda, what do you think?

10 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds about on par for an Indianapolis doughnut county,  urban sprawl based,  government school.  Probably pretty expensive as well.

  

Wait till you see the smorgasbord at the tailgate Muda

20 minutes ago, cg_holmeaid said:

It was a joke because Cathedral had at least 4 personal foul penalties called on them for no apparent reason that I know of with that crew. No reason to get butt-hurt over a joke

4??? Try 8 or 9.