Footballking16

2 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I agree...as far as the infrastructure, transportation, etc. there is no accountability in place for where the voucher dollars are used. So a school COULD use the money for those things.....or anything they choose to actually. 

I have no clue, but do you think Cathedral, Chatard, etc receive enough voucher money that would appropriately accommodate new infrastructure? I doubt it would. 

I would guess with high conviction that the voucher money Cathedral receives is used exclusively for free and reduced lunches. A big draw for Cathedral as you know is diversity and cutting off supply for free/reduced lunches would be a huge turn off to those considering Cathedral who are less fortunate. I have a pretty good idea that Cathedral's acceptance rate is 90+% and considering the majority of those who apply to Cathedral also apply to Chatard, Brebeuf, Scecina, etc and some that are ultimately accepted don't end up going there which means if you apply, there's an extremely good chance you get in. 

6 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Most are funded anywhere from partially to significantly, by tax dollars now.

Vouchers, yes. But infrastructure, transportation, etc. I'm not aware that it is the case but I could be wrong.

But if say a school like Brebeuf received an influx in applicants they can't go to the state and ask for money to build a new wing.

2 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

My thought would be this, if the school is truly not concerned about staying in any certain class, build a bigger school to accommodate the number of students wanting to come.  I mean if that truly is what the issue is (classroomss are only this big so only "x" amount can come), why not have a bigger school, and consequently move up in class size if necessary.  This is something public schools deal with yearly, shrinking/growing enrollment and the affects it has on the class in which you compete. 

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. 

You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. 

But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

On 11/30/2019 at 6:36 PM, Coach Nowlin said:

Hoosier nation can breathe.......

Very Very surprised Coach Brohm elected to go to 2nd OT instead of the win.  Defense has struggled all year get stops consistently, especially on 3rd and 8 and longer, PU has to lead the nation in not getting off the field in those situations.  IU made the plays they needed and won the game. 

I predict PU Offense average 500 yard + next year.   

Starting to question Brohm and his authenticity. How in the hell does he not go for 2 there?

I realize Purdue was banged up most the year, but really amazed at the lack of progression (especially on the defensive side of the ball) all year. Schematically they were terrible against IU and if IU had their full arsenal on offense, it may have (and still should have been) a 3 TD beat down.

I'm still waiting for Brohm to develop on offensive line. You could have 4 and 5 star skilled position players all over the field (which Purdue will have next year) but if you don't have an OL, it won't matter. Really surprised Brohm didn't go to the JUCO or GT ranks to shore up an offensive line.

I had a bunch of Purdue fans telling me as I was leaving Ross-Ade to enjoy the bucket while I could, and just couldn't help myself in thinking why Purdue is going to be significantly better next year. If you're putting a bunch of stock into a bunch of redshirt freshman who haven't or guys who missed most of the year and didn't get a chance to develop, how it puts them in a much better spot next year? IU returns 80% of it's 2 deep next year and many of those guys were freshman and sophomores. Looking at Purdue's schedule next year, I'm not sure I see 6 guaranteed wins. How long do Purdue fans justify paying a guy $6/mil to keep him away from Louisville that isn't reaching a bowl game?

I think recruiting is eventually going to find it's level in West Lafayette. Brohm has had the luxury of promising immediate playing time this last year along with next due to the lack of upperclassmen, but that is eventually going to wear out. He needs an offensive and defensive line quick, or things will go south quickly. Kevin Wilson was able to put up 500 yards of offense a game, but never had a defense and was outscored every game.

8 minutes ago, DT said:

No doubt.

However that does speak also to the relative weakness of the competition.

Its gotten so bad that Shelbyville is suspending their varsity program 

 

You asked, "where are they at without the extra 6000 yards and 100 touchdowns". They were a 60-4 program with a state title and and a runner-up before he ever got to New Pal. They were 3-7 the year before Ralph arrived. Where do YOU think they're at without Spegal? Maybe not the best football program in the state, but a very damn good one nonetheless who still could punch way above their weight. 

1 hour ago, DT said:

I am in no way disparaging NP success.  Im simply pointing out the reality of the giant elephant in the room.  Where are they without the extra 6000 yards and the 100 touchdowns?  Ralph has indeed built an elite program.  But he has built it against similar size schools, most of which do not have anywhere near the level of dedication to the game that you will find in The MIC, The HCC, The Circle City, The MSC, etc.

Spegal's addition made a strong case for New Pal being the #1 team in the state these last two years, but you're surely selling the job Ralph has done short if you think it has started and ended with Spegal. 

New Pal was 60-4 before Spegal transferred in and had a state title to boot and lost a thriller to a school over twice their size in a second state final. New Pal likely will take a step back next year but as a 4a school by enrollment, they're still going to be better than 95% of their 5A counterparts. 

3 hours ago, Olympian06 said:

Columbus East is a top 10 job in the entire state... not even debatable.. 

The MIC power 4, Cathedral, Chatard, New PAL, CE 

While I would agree East is a top 10 program over the last 10-15 years, I struggle reasoning that it is a top 10 job in the entire state and I would attribute it to their conference affiliation.

The top 4 in the MIC are all better jobs and I would say there is at least 4-5 jobs in the HCC that are all better and that doesn't include Cathedral and Chatard and that's just Indy. Elite program for sure, just not sure it's an elite landing spot.

Just my opinion.

6 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Remember, a realignment is happening after next year. Carmel will likely always be on the north/south border. As Zionsville likely moves permanently into 6A. 

I think Carmel is eventually going to permanently remain in the South with Elkhart and Zionsville becoming 6A schools. Have to remember that Valpo is a 6A school by enrollment but was pushed to 5A because of Columbus East. Valpo is likely back in 6A during the next cycle either due to enrollment or SF. If New Pal wins regional next year I believe they bump up to 6A and that could keep Carmel north, but I think Carmel will soon be a mainstay in the south bracket barring a bump up from a team like New Pal, Cathedral, or Columbus East.

8 minutes ago, DT said:

There is no perfect fix, no answer to address every potential outlyer and exception.

Im sure you understand that

 

What are you talking about, you literally said the 6A tournament was broken because it's continuously an all-MIC final more times than not. Carmel moving to the south bracket literally solves that. Not only will you see new representation in 6A north semi-state, but the 6A finals. 

3 minutes ago, DT said:

I dont believe the CG formula can be copied in this day and age.  It is a remnant of the 60s and 70s style of program development.

Neither kids nor parents have the dedication or the patience to endure what it takes to reach a CG level of achievement, relative to the competition.

Is New Pal literally not doing it now, in relation to their size? Establish a culture, build a feeder system, and hit the weight room and you see the results. 

3 minutes ago, DT said:

No.  I dont want to see blowouts in the 6A title game.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

The 6A title game (D2) would have been a blowout this year (Center Grove vs whoever) as well as next year (until Center Grove is bumped to D1) under your current proposal. 

Your current proposal doesn't solve a fix to an all-MIC final because not every MIC team falls in the upper half of 6A due to enrollment.

11 minutes ago, DT said:

Carmel has been established as a northern bracket school and should have been kept there to maintain some balance amongst the big 3.  

You really can't help yourself can you?

Carmel moving South 100% promotes competitive balance among 6A and you don't have to drum up an additional class to water down a 7th tournament in the process. Gone are the days of an all-MIC 6A final and you'll now see newer representation in 6A. Isn't that what you want?

11 minutes ago, DT said:

Its a mistake to move Carmel to the south.  Im surprised this is happening.

Why is it a mistake lol? If Carmel isn't one of the 16 northern-most teams, they belong in the south bracket. No?

Carmel moving south completely negates your idea that 6A needs to be split because now you'll see more northern representation in the finals; they'll just be more lopsided affairs.

7 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I would stop holding Oklahoma up based on previous arguments.

First, two of Oklahoma's classes are less than 11-man ball which Indiana does not have and likely will go kicking and screaming before it looks at that.  Secondly, and most importantly, the biggest thing that jumps out is that Oklahoma's class structure has very little to do with competitive balance based on how that term has been tossed around on GID and with the numbers thrown around.  OK's 6A Division I group, the largest, has a range from 5,037 ADM to 1,798 ADM.  That's about the same as Indiana's entire 6A class excluding Success Factor folks.  Their Division II 6A looks much more like Indiana's 5A in terms of size and spread.  

 

DT's proposal does nothing but muddy the waters and adds an unnecessary class to crown a champion in another watered down tournament.

7 minutes ago, DT said:

CGs consistent success would land them in D1 due to SF promotion

 

In some years yes.

Carmel is now going south due to Elkhart consolidating. So get ready for a bevy of future 6A finals featuring CG/Warren/Carmel/BD beating a new 6A representative from the north by multiple scores. 

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

We agree on a lot but Carmel and CG’s proximity to LOS undoubtedly plays a significant role in the lack of streaming viewership.

Agreed. A split 6A would have still produced a Carmel/BD or Warren state finals game and then a Center Grove/pick whatever team up North blowout in the second game. 

4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

 Enrollment is only part of the equation and is lazy analysis.

Agree and why I think it's silly to start a thread saying "the 6A tournament is broken" due to enrollment exclusively. It's dubiously funny that the thread has turned into a "MIC conference championship game" considering said poster who started the thread has made multiple attempts at discrediting the MIC. 

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Pike HAD the right guy, qualified for the state finals in this decade but two-thirds if their student population are on free/reduced lunch.  (THIS matters.)

So now you're steering from an enrollment issue to a socio-economic issue. I would agree with you on the latter that socio-economic factors plays a much larger roll than enrollment. I've given you examples of teams that are able to play above their weight and if you look what all these programs have in common it's that they have heavily invested in their football program, have strong community support, good feeder programs, etc.

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

700/800 difference in enrollment vs Brownsburg (negligible)...2400/2500 a week later vs BD.

Pike 1300+ the week before?

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Speaking without any specific facts but I would assume that places the size of Zionsville still have a handful of two way players whereas your mega schools do not.  That’s pretty significant in my opinion.

Couldn't tell you. I know it didn't have any impact on Zionsville winning a sectional this year though.

3 minutes ago, DT said:

BD, WC and Carmel have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that enrollment is certainly not redundant relative to football rosters

And a school like Center Grove has proven enrollment isn't what necessarily makes a program great. How has high enrollment numbers worked out for schools like North Central, Lake Central, and Pike? 

1 hour ago, BTF said:

If Zionsville (2055) has to go through Carmel (5286) for a state title, then what is the point of having a class system at all?

Doesn't Center Grove do it all the time? 

Don't you think enrollment becomes redundant once it gets to a certain threshold? You can only put 11 men on the field at a time. If you really want to be outraged, the disproportion of enrollments in 1A relative to football is much, much larger than that of 6A. A 1A school with 350 kids is at HUGE advantage over a school with say 150 kids in comparison to a school with 5286 kids playing against a school with 2055 kids. The enrollment gap between the largest 6A school and smallest 6A school is about the same as 1A (2.5x) yet schools in 1A are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to football, numbers speaking. Where's the feaux outrage to split 1A into two divisions? 

36 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Since it’s officially off-topic season I thought I’d generate some discussion.  I see this topic tossed about frequently at the collegiate level so I figured I’d pose it to the board.

Say you are a young grad with coaching experience and opportunity comes knocking.

What FIVE coaching gigs in Indiana would most excite you were the phone to ring?  If you are looking to build/maintain a powerhouse program that competes for state titles immediately/annually.

Furthermore, what job/job(s) out there that might not appear in the above category immediately would qualify as a “sleeping giants” and excite you most over the next 5-10 years?

Why?

Have at it.

Best jobs:

Carmel, Warren, Ben Davis, Cathedral, Chatard

Sleeping giants:

Mount Vernon (Fortville) and Westfield. Both rapidly growing communities with good socio-economic demographics to boost. 

6 hours ago, DT said:

I do find it interesting that the loudest voices against this proposal are PP voices.  Perhaps there is still some bitterness regarding the SF that is impacting your POV on any additional IHSAA moves to regulate football success.

?

If you’ve read any of my posts concerning the Success Factor over the years you would know they’ve been met with general support. The only thing I would tweak is making it a 4 year cycle rather than a 2 year. No bitterness whatsoever.

1 minute ago, DT said:

The Oklahoma precedent validates our argument, and we still have 2 fewer classes despite having 3M more in population.  

The Indiana model is more targeted, more precise, more fair, and continues to promote competitive balance.

And as I said earlier, just because Oklahoma implements a bad idea doesn’t mean Indiana needs to follow suit. There’s nothing wrong with the current set up.

7 minutes ago, DT said:

Schools like Warsaw, Carroll, Homestead, Laf Jeff, Merrillville, etc are never in the post season discussion as tournament history clearly eliminates them from any consideration.

And you asked me why I thought the postseason was watered down? You just answered your own question. Adding a 7th class of 16 teams no less, just so a namesake high school can win a state title instead of another school is the definition of a watered down postseason.