Footballking16

9 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Good point, and something I support.

 

So if you support that, why not push that agenda?

You understand that under your current proposal, the IHSAA would be hosting a tournament for 64 teams where only TWO have a winning record. 6-2 Frontier and 4-3 Oldenburg are the only two teams of the 64th worst rated Sagarin teams that have a winning record. Who would support that tournament format? That is the ultimate "lets give everybody a trophy". How do you justify that?

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So you would vote against Cathedral competing in the current 6A enrollment tournament?  Are you saying they could not compete?

 

Did I say that? Cathedral has already played in the 6A tournament and I fully supported it via the success factor. If you have success in your enrollment-based classification, you should be bumped up.

What I have a problem with is telling a school like South Adams who has 369 kids, they now have to compete in a tournament with schools like Penn, Southport, Noblesville, etc. It ain't right.

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

No, I'm not.

Just recognizing that a primarily-enrollment based system doesn't work, and creates too much competitive imbalance regarding the state tournament.   And so I'm putting forth a reasonable alternative.

 

If you eliminated half the field at the conclusion of the regular season and seeded the tournament this competitive imbalance wouldn't exist. The reason why blowouts are so widespread in the current format is that the best teams knock each other out early and they let teams in who have no business being in. 

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

So what is the correct 'x' factor when it comes to enrollment?  Apparently it is ok for a Cathedral to play in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment but not 10x?

Cathedral has never played in a tournament with schools 5-6x their enrollment. They currently play in a tournament where the largest school has 800 more students. 

Cathedral is an outlier in this whole thing. That is why the success factor exists, to promote schools up a class who have sustained success in their enrollment based-class.

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

I don't think it would work because the kids are not there for long and are not hand picked.  I watched promotion/relegation in Colombia and Ecuador.  Whoever has the most money wins.  

He's trying to replicate European soccer. What Muda is not taking into consideration is that when teams are promoted at the professional level, they are allocated more funds to go out and "buy" newer and better players to be able to compete against better teams. That isn't feasible in high school athletics and why a "true system of promotion/relegation" is one of the more profoundly dumb arguments on this site. 

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So a true system of promotion and relegation would have no real affect on an outstanding, national level football program like Cathedral's.    Thank you.

And I'm not dying on any hill.  Just promoting my ideas and opinions. 

 

I'm not thinking about Cathedral in the least when you talk about promotion and relegation. I'm talking about teams like South Adams who would be forced to play in a tournament with schools 10x their enrollment.

That ain't right.

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes, you make me chuckle as well with your stubborn adherence to the status quo.  As long as it benefits Cathedral, of course.  A p/p zealot to the core.

Status quo? Cathedral has been promoted several times lol. Not only that, they've been promoted 2 classes, the only program to have that happen to them. They are still playing up 1 class to their natural enrollment and you haven't heard me complain about it one time.

What an outstanding hill to die on Muda.

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Though I do need a good laugh this morning.

What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? You only seem to cite a wikipedia page for European soccer whenever you're asked this question. 

I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you. 

@Muda69 I take it by your downvote you don't have an actual proposal? 

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Prove me wrong.   

Though I do need a good laugh this morning.

What is your actual criteria for promotion and relegation once the field has been set? You only seem to cite a wikipedia page for European soccer whenever you're asked this question. 

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Thought so.  Just keep talking out the both sides of your mouth, decrying the evils of Sagarin on this thread while virtually extolling it's virtues in another.

 

I have no problem with Sagarin. Just think it's hypocrisy coming from you. 

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Prove me wrong.   

No need Muda

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I only said Sagarin could be used for the initial slotting of teams into non-enrollment based classifications. I never said it would be the method going forward to determine what teams to promote and what teams to relegate.   

 

lol

2 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

if sagarin is sole basis of placement in any kind of tournament, I will make sure to score as many points as possible and never pull a starter against weaker competition so that our Sagain number can get bumps for margin of victory

That is why Sagarin is not the end all discussion as it can be manipulated for your advantage 

Imagine Muda typing a thread trying to justify promotion/relegation using Sagarin as his basis for measurement while also chiding schools for "running up the score".

That my friends is quite the conundrum. 

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Tell that to the real Indiana high school basketball tournament, pre-1997.

And the IHSAA is a voluntary organization. If a number of high school AD's don't like how they run the organization, then by all means form your own.

 

Basketball is completely different than football.

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Again, that is your enrollment hangup, not mine.  

And nice dodge of the C-ville question.

 

A school with 369 people isn't to be expected to compete with schools that have 10x their enrollement.

The goal of high school sports nationwide is to crown champions based on like-size enrollement, not field a tournament that crowns a champion among the 64 worst teams in the state. What is so hard to understand about that?

The IHSAA would open themselves up to endless amounts of lawsuits if they orchestrated a tournament in such fashion. Penn playing a team like South Adams is a disaster waiting to happen from an injury perspective. 

9 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You don't know that.  And you talking about South Adams or Adams Central?

And on the flip side what business does a football program like Crawfordsville have being in this years's sectional 28?  Talking about getting beat by 100 points,  South Adams could probably beat C-ville, a '3A' school, by 100.

 

Yes sorry South Adams, enrollment 369.

They would be playing in a state tournament with schools like Penn, Noblesville, Columbus East, Southport, etc under your current proposal.

Ya, no thanks.

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

Yes. It is you who continue to wear your enrollment blinders, not I.

Why do we seem to have no problem with Cathedral competing against the likes of Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central,  yet letting a South Adams, Pioneer, or LCC compete against the likes of West Lafayette, Heritage Hills, Chatard, etc. in a tournament setting is anathema?

 

Because Cathedral CAN compete with those schools and due to the success factor they have to. Chatard or West Lafayette would beat Adams Central by 100 points this year. If Adams Central continues to win, they will be bumped up.

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

You asked for the initial classification.  I answered.     Sure, your scenario could happen the initial year, but if we averaged the sagarin rating over say a 3-5 year period then those football playing schools with a strong established program would tend to be promoted.  Your usual flash-in-the-pan, once-in-a-decade senior class of OMG! Athletes from a government school, not so much.

 

And you think pitting teams with an enrollment differential by 2-3k students is the answer to competitive balance?

You're nuts.

8 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Doesn't really matter what you call them, they will have associations.  1A, 2A, 3A, etc. is just as good as All-Star-Division, Middle Division, etc. or Gold, Silver, Bronze, or Cat, Dog, Bird even if it has a less-direct/historic meaning in a new form.  Folks know what it means when you make the NIT vs. the NCAA tourney in March and it wouldn't matter if you labelled it March Madness or late-March Madness or Dog and Cat.  And you have to start and then go somewhere, which I believe @Footballking16 is getting at.

 

That is what I'm getting at, unless at the end of the regular season you put the top 32 Sagarin teams in the top flight, the next top 32 teams in a second flight and so on and so on. If you did it that way you would potentially have a team like Adams Central with an enrollment of ~380 playing against a team like Penn with an enrollment of ~3500. It's nonsense. 

8 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I thought open enrollment was the goose that laid the golden OMG! Athlete eggs?

My initial proposal to initially classify teams outside of current enrollment?  Easy:  Sagarin:  http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm

 

 

Based off what? The prior season success? So if School A with an enrollment of 350 kids has an exceptional senior class that makes it to the state finals and finishes the year rated 68th in Sagarin they could potentially play in a tournament with a school that has 3500 kids the next year? Without the senior class that got them there in the first place?

Yeah, good luck.

Just now, Muda69 said:

You first have to completely disassociate classifications like '5A' and '2A' from enrollment.  Under a true system of promotion/relegation enrollment has no bearing whatsoever.

Then educate yourself with primers like this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

I'm currently drinking a Diet Mt. Dew.  Want some?

 

  

I know how promotion and relegation works. Unlike professional sports, high schools aren't allocated funds to buy and sell players at the conclusion of each season.

What is your proposal?? How do you initially classify teams outside current enrollment? For someone who has been preaching promotion and relegation for several years, you don't seem to have any kind of contingency plan or any idea how it works.

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Thank you for the clarification.  So the strategy is to identify the OMG! Athletes by the time they are in the 8th grade then steer them to enroll in the correct 'football academy'  as a 9th grader, therefore bypassing the long arm of the IHSAA.

 

Exactly.  Which is why a true system of promotion/relegation will work where jury-rigging the current enrollment-based classification system with thing like the success factor really don't.

 

How do you regulate that is what I'm asking? So if you don't win your sectional you move down a class? 1 of Avon/Brownsburg isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me the loser of that game moves down to 5A? 3 of Guerin/Chatard/West Lafayette/Brebuef isn't going to win their sectional. You telling me those 3 teams now move down to 2A? That's how promotion/regulation works? That fixes competitive balance? 

Pass me what you're having.

6 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

John Harrell’s site had them 4-4 regular season, and 10-4 overall with 6 playoff wins. Not sure why only 8 regular season games. 

You and I don’t align they would have had such a high ranking with in-state wins over non-ranked teams with a combined 13-21 record. 

Look at comparable scenarios? It’s all about SOS and opponent SOS. Cathedral is ALWAYS a top 5-10 Sagarin rated team because of their schedule. They were 4-5 heading into the postseason last year and still a top 5 Sagarin rated team.

This years 3-5 Roncalli team is rated 17th in Sagarin and they’re nowhere near as good as the 02 team and haven’t played a tenth of the schedule the 02 team played. 

Luers at 2-6 is rated 15th in 2A and it’s all because they play teams outside their class.

6 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Big maybe....their 3 state regular season wins were over 5-7 Whiteland, 4-7 Manual, 4-7 Elkhart Central. 

They still played by far and away the toughest schedule in 4A. Cathedral was 4-5 going into the postseason last year and still was a top 5 Sagarin rated team the entire year.

I would bet any amount of money that a 5-4 Roncalli team in 2002 that played CG, Franklin Central, Chatard, and Cincy Elder was rated in the top half in 4A in Sagarinand would even go so far to say they were top 10.  

Heck this years Roncalli team who started 0-4 (currently 3-5) is ranked 17th in 4A Sagarin and hasn’t played near the schedule the 02 team played.

8 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Perhaps. Debatable. 2002 Season. Started off with losses to CG, Franklin Central, Chatard and Cincy Elder (hammered). Victories over Elkhart Central, Whiteland, Columbus OH St Charles and Indpls Manual. Would that be enough?  

Started 0-4...went 10-4 and beat FW Dwenger in state championship 

 

In a rating system that accounted for SOS, opponent SOS, W-L record, and opponent W-L most definitely. I’ve seen Cathedral start 0-4, 1-3 on many occasions and they’re always still in the top 10 of Sagarin or Calpreps.

Center Grove went 8-1 and reached SS

Franklin Central went undefeated during the regular season and lost in the sectional finals.

Chatard was an undefeated state champion

And Elder was one of the best teams in the entire country and went 14-1 and won the D1 title in Ohio. In fact, the following year Elder was #1 in the country and got blown out by Warren and Desmond Tardy.

4 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

No...but I can sure think of a Roncalli team a few years back that lost some key people. started out the season 0-4 and ended up winning the state title.  I bet they are hardly alone when it comes to teams that have been absolutely competitive in the tournament after getting key players back healthy.

I can't speak to the exact year but would have to imagine that Roncalli would have been rated in the top half of 4A in any kind of analytic or advanced rating system even starting 0-4. That's why W-L record would never exclusively be the deciding or mitigating factor.