Footballking16

7 minutes ago, DT said:

Dilley, Streiff and O'Shea were all very big fish in very small ponds when coaching PPs.  They became small fish in very large ponds when they jumped into the MIC Meatgrinder.  It has everything to do with transitioning from PP to public.  You're even more clueless than he is.

If Dilley, O'Shea, or Streiff went to say Ben Davis or Carmel does that change your outlook? Dick Dullaghan went from Bishop Chatard to Carmel and then to Ben Davis and was widely successful. It has absolutely nothing to do with transitioning from P/P to Public and everything to do with the school in which they transitioned too. Show me a coach, regardless if he came from a public or private institution, that has been successful at either North Central or Lawrence North...ever.

2 minutes ago, DT said:

No he is 100% wrong

He's not wrong in the least. The IHSAA doesn't exist to hand out trophies to everyone. Akin to the NCAA, the IHSAA exists to regulate the rules they set forth for each existing member. 

50 minutes ago, DT said:

I'm not talking about Mark haste or any other public school coach. This topic all along has been about PP to public transition. Dilley, Strieff, o'shea,.  All Hall of Fame caliber PP coaches. All mediocre results on the public side. It's really a black and white issue. No need to color it

He's clearly illustrating there are massive roadblocks that HoF caliber coaches can't overcome at North Central. It has nothing to do with transitioning from a private or a public school. 

35 minutes ago, DT said:

Clueless

Explain how he is clueless? He's 100% correct. 

15 minutes ago, Grover said:

I would have loved to see what D'vauntes Smith-Rivera could do on a football field.

I’ve seen it lol.

He and my step-brother were on Westlane’s team together in junior high. He might have been full grown as a 7th grader.

Eric Gordon at tailback would have been something. He was 6’3 and built like a house.

33 minutes ago, DT said:

Heading into Year 6, I would have expected OShea would have NC in position to challenge for a conf championship.  They are not in the conversation.  So in my view, the transition has been a failure.  Can that be reversed?  Certainly.  Perhaps this season will be the beginning.  As I mentioned previously, NC should get CA and CG off the schedule.  That's two guaranteed losses that can be turned into wins with a different scheduling approach.  

Center Grove and Carmel have zero bearing on North Central's ability to win the MIC going forward.

2 minutes ago, DT said:

I think you are both spot on with your assessments.  However, I think its also fair to assume that Coach O'Shea was fully aware of all of these potential roadblocks and challenges when he took the job.  BD, WC and CA have all opened at times over the past decade and OShea certainly was qualified to coach any of them, yet he chose The MICs most bottom level performer.  Coach Streiff should also be included in this conversation, as he also did the PP/Public Shuffle, with similar results to Dilley and OShea.  People get upset and take it personally when the word "failure" is used.  But lets call it what it is.  

Again define "failure"? What one school deems failure, another school doesn't. Kevin O'shea and Jason Simmons were hired a year apart. While Simmons has the better resume on paper, I don't think you'd find many people who'd agree that Jason Simmons has done a better managing expectations than O'Shea. 

12 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Let's be honest, a lot of coaches *and teachers* go from p/p to public for financial reasons, and the pension/retirement is a part of it. It's one reason I've stayed in education when I had opportunities to leave. But the way you're phrasing it is that it's a parachute job that he's not putting anything into, which couldn't be further from the truth. O'Shea isn't putting less into NC's program than he did at LCC, but it takes a lot to build up a culture where there hadn't been one. 

I hesitate to call what O'Shea has done at NC a "failure."

He took over a program that hadn't had a winning season in 11 years and one that had gone 1-29 in the three previous years. Since, he's posted three winning seasons playing one of the state's toughest schedules (they play Fishers & HSE in addition to the MIC schedule - a real meat-grinder). They struggled last year, but the body of work of North Central with O'Shea has been pretty darned good. 

Do I expect NC to become a potential perennial state championship contender? Not necessarily. NC is a really difficult school to win at. There may be no Indy-area suburban public school that gets hit harder by transfers than NC (Cathedral, Chatard & Brebeuf are all in - or right next to - NC's district and they lose a lot of students and athletes to those schools). Their district has suffered a lot of out-migration, especially to Carmel, over the last 30-40 years. While that's happening elsewhere (Pike->Brownsburg/Zionsville, Southport/Perry Meridian->Center Grove, LN->HSE/Fishers, Ben Davis->Avon/Brownsburg, more recently LN/LC->Mt. Vernon and Warren Central->Mt. Vernon/New Pal), that pattern seemed to hit NC before it hit those other communities. 

Success is measured in different ways. We tend to think of it as "are you playing on Thanksgiving weekend?" But to a lot of programs - especially in this open enrollment era - just simply being above .500 or having a chance to win a conference/sectional is a win for a lot of programs. 

Nailed it.

Washington Twp had (has?) one of the worst youth programs forever and not sure if there's been anything done to fix it and it may just be out of Coach O'Shea's control. Several Washington Twp kids end up playing CYO ball and ultimately settle at the three P/P's you just mentioned who are all right near NC stomping grounds. 

2 hours ago, DT said:

Patterson has an NFL mentality.  I really like his approach and outlook.  If you look at The MIC over the past 15 years, LC is probably the closest to WC in terms of true athletic talent in numbers.  CG and Carmel have more football players, but LC has always had athletes, and lots of them.  Pike also has a chance to surprise some people this year.  They have struck out on their last two coaches, and hopes are high that Brevard is the guy that is going to bring back Pike football to the Moyers era level of success.  

O'Shea has followed the blue print of Tom Dilley.  Great PP success, failure at a big public.  I just dont see NC having enough to overcome the MIC 6 plus CG and CA.  I read something here on The GID once that inferred that O'Shea's move to NC was more for financial-pension related reasons than for taking on the monumental challenge of making NC a winner in The MIC.  And for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice/decision.  We all make decisions through the course of our careers for different reasons and with different motivations.  After all these years at NC, OSheas teams and his program still have not developed an identity.  That is a big failure in my view, even more so than the won - loss record.

 

Define failure? Not win a state title? They won 9 games a few years ago. They had 9 wins the previous 5 years combined.

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Agreed.  
 

For fun, the Temp’s preseason top 10 would look like this:

1.  Cathedral

2.  Center Grove 

3.  Carmel

4.  Westfield

5.  Brownsburg

6.  Warren Central

7.  Ben Davis

8.  Hamilton Southeastern

9.  Fishers

10.  North Central

Can’t argue too much with that. I’d think Zionsville would be better than Fishers though?

Any input on teams north of metro Indy? Elkhart the biggest “threat” out of sectional 1 or 2?

50 minutes ago, DT said:

Whats the logic on the North Central pick at #10?  

O’Shea might be the best coach in that conference and they have just as many D1 commits as anybody else in that league.

Just now, temptation said:

Agree but I think you are actually being a bit too modest about your Irish.  I’ve never bought into the “they are #1 until they are beaten” mantra.  CG’s graduation losses are well known.  Flip your top two and you are spot on.

Splitting hairs I know.  Good analysis.

While Cathedral didn't lose the magnitude of players that CG lost, they still lost 9/11 starters on defense and their entire offensive line. While I don't doubt Cathedral's ability to reload, just like Center Grove, still a tough task moving up to this level of competition. You could certainly make a case for Cathedral being #1 and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it, I do believe CG has earned the right to be #1 until proven otherwise. 

Have seen a few of these for the other classes but not one for 6A. 

This offseason has seen some massive shakeups with conference realignment along with the addition of Cathedral bumping up to 6A for a second time since the implementation of the Success Factor. For the first time in a long time the MIC is no longer the premier football conference in Indiana. In fact there's a very real chance the top 3 programs in the state this year will try and win the 6A title under the independent flag. 

Also for the first time in awhile there isn't a clear cut favorite heading into the season. Center Grove is looking to be the first team to 3peat in the largest class since Warren's unprecedented four year title run from 2003-2006. The Trojans have a tall task ahead of them replacing a ridiculously talented 2022 that will go down as the best in their schools history, but the Center Grove is now at the point where they no longer rebuild, the simply reload.

My preseason top 5 (and the 5 teams who I believe have a realistic chance to win it all)

1. Center Grove---28 straight wins, 2 consecutive state titles, they're #1 until someone beats them. Period.

2. Cathedral---newcomer to 6A, my personal (and homeristic) take is that Cathedral is the most talented team in the state this year. All-State caliber QB and WR should make for a very potent offense. Suffered heavy losses on the OL and defensive unit that was extremely stout last year. 

3. Carmel--Greyhounds failed to make it out of sectionals for the first time since 2012 last year. Carmel has a pair of Purdue commits anchoring their defense and should greatly benefit from their move back to the north end of the bracket and should be heavy favorites to represent come Thanksgiving Weekend. 

4. Brownsburg--Feel like this is put up or shut up time in this spot. Very talented squad who returns a fair amount from last year and should be the early favorites to win the HCC

5. Westfield---one of the fastest rising programs in the state. Lose a trio of D1 players from a squad who made it to back to back championship games but have enough left in the tank to get there a third time.

HSE, Warren, and Ben Davis are who I would consider the best of the rest. 

36 minutes ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

If Dwenger could surge to the top of 5A, we could have the 6 class P/P hegemony opportunity that Muda has dreamed about for years now. 

Can you say Bandwidth Overload?

4A south is going to be a gauntlet. 

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Brownsburg is a little brother in 6A overall, not necessarily specific to Carmel…hell the entire HCC is as of now.  
 

I caught hell when claiming the HCC had closed the gap and would eventually take over even after citing regular season wins.

Its like you said in the off topic forum, Michigan beat OSU last fall but no one truly (including you) believes the rivalry has changed, nor should they.

But I don't believe Brownsburg is adverse to adding Carmel and Center Grove to the HCC. Westfield on the other hand, from what I've gathered in this thread, is vehemently opposed to the idea. 

Brownsburg at least schedules Ben Davis in the regular season as it makes sense given their west side locations. 

There's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't play every year in the regular season given Westfield's dynamic growth not only as a school and community, but as a football program. 

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

Brownsburg disagrees.  I think they surprised the hell out of Carmel last year…would have never happened the way it did had they played in the regular season.

You can get where you want to go without playing someone in the regular season.

No one considers Brownsburg "Carmel's little brother".

Westfield and Carmel are natural rivals given the proximity and likeness of both communities . Given Westfield's extreme growth the last decade and the desire to be a major player in 6A, there's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't be playing every year, regardless if it's due to conference affiliation or not. 

12 minutes ago, DT said:

Outside of the Indy Metro madness, high school football is really a local game.  The vast majority of schools in this state will never get past the sectional round.  So winning at the local level, whether it be a conference championship, a county championship, or just winning a rivalry game, are the primary goals for many programs around the state.  

We have a handful of contenders in each class.  After that, everybody is playing to be the best in their own backyard.

Zionsville and Westfield are both in Metro Indy so that logic doesn't apply here. In the case of Westfield, they are going to have to beat Carmel at some point to win a 6A title as it appears Carmel is back North for the time being and likely awhile. If they ever want the little brother moniker removed, they need to start scheduling and beating Carmel regularly. That's not going to happen by ducking them. 

3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

The quickest way to break out of your big brother's shadow is to kick his *ss ... preferably in front of his friends. 

Definitely.

Carmel and their 5000+ students aren't going away. Not sure ducking Carmel to pile up HCC regular season championships is going to mean much in the grand scheme of things. Beating them regularly however is a completely different animal. 

12 hours ago, foxbat said:

I think you'd be more likely to see Westfield and Zionsville push to boot some of the other schools out of the HCC and look at re-votes to admit Carmel and/or Center Grove rather than jump ship to form a new conference.

Could be the case.

Unless there's a plan to build a second high school to accommodate the fast growing Whitestown, it's not out of the question to think Zionsville could be pushing 3k students sometime in the next decade. If you subscribe to the theory that low F/R/L makes a spectacular football program, Zionsville should be a major player in 6A for years to come. 

Same rule applies to Westfield. Without a second high school in the works, they will be approaching mega-enrollment sooner than later. Both Westfield and Zionsville's enrollments have doubled in the last 10-15 years. 

18 minutes ago, DT said:

Not exactly a glowing assessment of the competitive nature of the two biggest and baddest high school athletic conferences in the state.  

Which is why I think you'll see a newly formed conference created down the road. 

Carmel

Center Grove

Westfield

Brownsburg

HSE

Zionsville

That's a start. Fishers, Avon, Franklin Central, and Noblesville can decide if they want to play big boy football or not. MIC/HCC merger from there seems realistic.

48 minutes ago, DT said:

When you publicly flirt with a new job opportunity, then get fired from your current employer for disloyalty, and then get turned down for the job you were pursuing, you kind of look like an idiot.  

Ive dumbed it down for you as much as i can.

You seriously believe Center Grove and Carmel got the boot because they had ideas of joining another conference? 

6 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Michigan is deeper but I think the top teams in Indiana in general are a little better most years. 

Center Grove would have been the best team in either state last year but Michigan has some very good top end teams. Michigan produces a ton of top end talent however, much more than Indiana.

10 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

It’s easy to start thinking highly of a team just because they have a couple big time commits. Doesn’t necessarily translate to being the best team on the field. 

They went 13-1 last year, beat Moeller (OH), River Rouge, and Cass Tech (twice) and won the D3 title. They lost to Carmel on a Hail Mary in week 1. They're a very good team. They're also very talented. 

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

But didn’t you just say yesterday that BD/Warren weren’t locks for the top of the conference?  Now Warren is “significantly better” than the rest of its schedule?

According to 247, Christian Brothers’ best player holds offers from every big name program in America.  
 

They then have a kid committed to Northwestern, another to Cincinnati, and then four other uncommitted kids that appear In Missouri’s top 50.

I think Detroit King is significantly better than everyone else on Warren's schedule.