Footballking16

Cry

56-9 Owen Valley 2nd half running clock. Yawn.

Hard to call it a community when it's that big, I think that's the on-going issue. A town (really a city now) with 100k+ people and only one public high school is going to be a tough sell for all-in involvement. Schools that rival Carmel; Zionsville, Westfield, HSE, Fishers, Noblesville still feel like communities and all seem to have much more involvement and pride. I've always wondered what a two high school system in Carmel would look like; Carmel East and Carmel West. Obviously they'd lose their overall athletic profile which dominates the state, but both a West and East high school would still be very overly competitive in just about every sport.

Staying at Ball State where he can be an every down back.

Excellent points!

Yeah worded that wrong. Should read: *Playing in its 3rd consecutive 6a title

Yes I would agree that isn't the end of the world, but have heard there is some pretty major disconnect between the high school program and the youth and feeder leagues. It's currently not structured very well and there is very little influence being pushed from the top. They all seem to run independently from one another and there's just not much cohesion between all parties. That's not the Carmel I used to know.

Isn't that essentially what "overrated means"?

I don't know exact numbers and for how long its been trending down but it appears, at least on the surface, the Carmel's Hamilton County peers have caught up to them and in Westfield's case, likely surpassed them. Decent chance Westfield is playing for its 3rd consecutive 6A title here in the coming weeks.

I think low participation numbers at the youth and feeder levels signals at least one of two things 1. Carmel's losing football players to alternative leagues ie CYO 2. Lack of support in the youth leagues are steering kids to different sports Having a strong youth/feeder program is the foundation for a strong varsity program in my opinion. It's not 100% foolproof, but not many instances where a strong high school program isn't backed by a strong youth/feeder with heavy community involvement. I know others have dismissed it, but as I said yesterday I'm hearing this is the case with Carmel. Carmel Dad's football numbers are almost at an all-time low for football and two of the Junior High Schools have declining participation numbers. A school of Carmel's raw size can likely get away with it long term, but I think you've seen a decent decline in just three seasons.

Yeah I think Georgia is done if they lose tomorrow. Currently at #3, they would drop 2-3 spots and simply wouldn't have many other outs going forward unless several teams in front of them lose. Win on Saturday and I think UT is in regardless of what they do in the SEC championship so long as they don't lose to Mizzou, SC, or Vandy to end the year. Still have this feeling Alabama is going to run the table from here on out and play their way in.

Football is a no cut sport so I'm sure that argument holds true. But I don't think Carmel's dominance in country club sports has anything to do with its football program as I imagine the football program isn't competing with those sports for athletes. I imagine that is the case just about everywhere else. I do think Carmel's support system at the feeder and youth levels are weakening and could be the root problem going forward.

This hurts loser of OSU/UM the most in my opinion, depending on how far UT drops in the event they lose Saturday. I do think if Clemson and/or TCU end up running the table they will jump UT in the final poll regardless of where they are ranked heading into the game. Alabama is strategically placed at 6 to where they have an in assuming they win out and beat UT/GA in the SEC championship.

How many of the country club sports are really competing with football though? You don't see many kids deciding between golf and football or swimming and football. Soccer has always been the Fall sport that has competed directly with football. Lacrosse is another booming sport that is also competes directly with the type of kid that plays football but is a Spring sport here in Indiana. Still, with the numbers Carmel has, it shouldn't be an issue. The more I think about it, I think Temp may be right about Carmel getting too big for its own good. And to further it, I don't think its just the school, but Carmel itself. Carmel has eclipsed 100k residents and is now the 4th largest city in the state and will soon pass Evansville sometime in the next 5-10 years. Unlike its Hamilton County counterparts, Carmel today has much more of a city vibe than a town/community vibe. There's a ton of families living in Carmel that have next to nothing to do with Carmel High School who send their kids elsewhere. I think this hurts Carmel internally more than people want to lead on.

I’m not anointing the Carmel program dead, just pointing out that there seems to be a clear downward trend. And the dwindling participation numbers within the youth and junior high feeders suggest this may be more than just a cyclical issue.

So a talent problem then? Coaching? Not enough D1 kids or what? Carmel for years had phenomenal offensive lines who were nasty and bullied other teams. Haven’t seen that the last few years. They’re on a downward trajectory, I think that’s pretty evident. No longer the top dog in Hamilton County, that torch has been passed.

They replicate what they did against Ben Davis and I think they roll the rest of the field.

Favorable or not that's still a gauntlet, would much rather be in the northern half of the bracket at this juncture. However, Brownsburg does have the horses to navigate it.

I heard Carmel Dad's Club is virtually non-existent these days for football and two of the Junior High Schools have numbers that are considerably down. While its true they get move ins, they do lose their share of talent to Guerin, Brebeuf, Cathedral in some cases. Temp may have hit the nail on the head yesterday about Carmel's size finally catching up to them.

Closer than the first matchup but I see Roncalli controlling both the clock and the ball in this one.

Is it cyclical though? Carmel had two B10 commits plus a few MAC/G5 caliber players. Not sure talent was/has been the issue for Carmel. Attitude, toughness, etc or in this case lack thereof, is generally what I'm hearing has been an issue for Carmel these last few years. Does seem like a culture problem much more than a coaching/talent issue. John Herbert just didn't forget how to coach overnight.

You made the parameters not me. Have Carmel demographics shifted that much in the last 5 years? On a side note, you may be on to something about the size of Carmel. I know there are a fair amount of Carmel kids not playing at Carmel.

That's a lot of moms.

24-9 the last 3 years doesn't scream an immediate problem, but Carmel has seen each of its last two seasons end in the sectional rounds and they seem to be a shell of its former self. Carmel played for a state championship in 5 of the 7 years from 2013-2019 (won 2) and hasn't sniffed one since. If you subscribe to the idea the mega enrollment schools + low SES numbers=state contenders, then Carmel is failing miserably. Word on the street is that participation numbers are extremely low at 2/3 junior high so this may indicate a more widescale problem. 4-5 years ago I would have told you that Carmel may have been the most desirable high school football job in the Midwest, it may not even be the most desirable job in its own county.

And why I will continue to maintain that if you need an entitled postseason game to bring yourself to show up 100% every week, you’re part of a bigger problem.