FastpacedO

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

Don't you remember how this works?  HSE and Westfield were "worn out by the grind of a grueling HCC schedule" which ended up in their demise...

Ben Davis on the other hand, benefitted from a tough schedule in the tournament.

No, seriously though. Russ Mann's squad just eliminated four future hall of fame coaches in 5 weeks.  That is insane.

I guess it is too early to put Coach Brevard in as a Future HOF Coach in his first year at Pike!

Coach Moyers had them in a good direction until his last year in 2014, they finished 4-6 and lost to Ben Davis 49-38 but they were competitive. Pike is a pretty big mystery, there are athletes roaming those halls.

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

I admire your persistence. It was a game where the East Central fans, the most vocal of the tournament, pretty much stood up and screamed if the refs even looked at their players the wrong way. Forgive anyone on the other side for wanting something to go their way as well. 

Unnecessary comments, and I am not one of the East Central fans nor was I part of the most vocal. I just pointed out it was the correct call on the field by the official and provided a couple of still photos of the jersey grab (which would be called at any level).

As for in correct calls the TD catch in 6A by Zackery ruled incomplete was a missed call. Overall the officials did a solid job through the 6 games.

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Thanks for the insight. Noted and respected. Still think it was ticky tack. 

Here is another step frame shot. The jersey tug did impede the jump from happening sooner.

44 minutes ago, BTF said:

After showing the replay, those of us in the stands thought it was pretty ticky tack since refs seem to let kids play at this level of the tournament. Shouldn't have been called in my opinion. Overall though, I was very impressed how all the games were officiated. No one is perfect. 

Pass interference is called if the defensive player contacts the offensive player while he is trying to catch the pass, unless the defender has turned his head to face the oncoming pass and is attempting to intercept it. Accidental, glancing contact is not penalized.

To me it wasn't ticky tack and was the correct call. @Bobref and @Yuccaguy can correct me if I am wrong. Had he not grabbed a handful of Brotherton's jersey he probably would have been okay. He did somewhat look back to the ball so contact could have been deemed accidental, but when you grab the jersey that will be called regardless (see photo)

2 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

to be fair the BD game was closer than it should have been, Ben Davis left points on the field and made some errors early in the game that kept it close....

Not to mention had to settle for a Field Goal after officiating missed an obvious TD catch by Zackery. I won't bag too much the officials did a very good job in that game, but that one was a miss and it is different in real time speed than in slow motion replay.

I felt like Ben Davis was getting to antsy in the first half. Run game was working well with Price and they kept trying to throw deep when CP was playing well off the ball. Probably should have stuck with short passing game and running the ball with Price and Gotkowski. They would throw deep on 1st and 10 and end up in 2nd and 10.

Defensively they were very antsy jumping offsides on CP's shift giving them 1st and 5. I knew the snowball effect would happen  just felt they were too anxious to get it started.

21 hours ago, BTF said:

Lately everyone has been siting Calpreps and Massey's football polls. Why the belief that these are so accurate? Sagarin does a darn good job, but we've seen some flaws.

Calpreps on the year was 928-169 (84.6%) accurate projecting Indiana High School games (pretty darn good). Nationally they were 42,297 8,362 (83.5%) so far still games to go. Ultimately I usually go by Calpreps before Sagarin because Sagarin's flaw is they do not count out of state games. It gives you a solid starting point but still always good to watch the teams at least on film if not in person if you want a full accurate assessment. Hard to do with so many teams in the State.

13 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

Why would you place Snider over CG?  CG and BD played to OT in the semistate...BD kicked a FG near end of regulation to force OT.  Are you saying Snider can play even with BD if you believe they should be ranked over CG?  CG's schedule was stacked full of very quality teams, many of them out of state.  Snider could have matched their record all season long?  

Just wanting to understand your rationale. 

I think you know the answer to this question it is pretty obvious. I also 100% do not agree with it either. They will be in 6A next year though. I think 6A will be very interesting next year especially in the South bracket. Ben Davis, Center Grove, Brownsburg, and Cathedral have some key players to replace.

10 hours ago, BTF said:

I have a hard time betting against Brownsburg, Ben Davis, and Center Grove. I've got Snider, Chatard, Cathedral, and East Central in a dead lock at #4. 

For all we have possibly disagreed on I do 100% agree with you on this post!

10 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Don’t throw facts in this, doesn’t fit their narrative. Snider obliterated Warren at Warren yet several weeks later that same Warren team went to Ben Davis and lost on a last minute field goal

They played who again…

What narrative? I know it is hard for you to comprehend being in the Fort Wayne area the WC vs BD game. It is a very heated rivalry of East vs West that gets into the heads of all players involved regardless of records. Add in that WC's head coach is the former HC at Ben Davis and there is a lot going into this match-up. Not only that but Ben Davis was coming off of a game against IMG too, it was prime for a trap game but Ben Davis over came it. I know you keep bringing up East Central played who, but their schedule and FW Sniders schedule were pretty even. Opponents record for EC 101-78 Opponents record for Snider 73-81.

9 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

You’re right, you beat who was on the schedule. Where are the 6A teams on that schedule? EC knew this was going to be a great year, schedule up and challenge yourself

Again refer to the above answer. I would constitute Moeller as equal to a 6A opponent. Harrison (Their rival from Ohio) well within 5A. They added Roncalli who was terrific until this year. What won't change from their schedule is their Conference opponents (just like Snider) and their Rival Harrison (OH) they are practically next door neighbors. That leaves them with 2 spots open, they filled that with Moeller (very good) and Roncalli who was 37-4 (2020-2022) until this year (4-7) they started playing Roncalli in 2020. I think they have done their best to beef up what they could, it wasn't expected Roncalli would struggle that much this year.

8 hours ago, BTF said:

I'll chime in on this one. Your question is valid. 

I've been watching Snider football, like Komets, for a long time. This defense is arguably the best they've ever fielded. That's saying something for a program that's played for a state title nine times and who has the best record in Indiana going back 32 years. It wouldn't matter who they played, no one is making a fool out of this defense. It would keep them competitive against anyone. 

I agree with you. It's fun to debate these hypothetical rankings. I just wanted to give my opinion of what I think is a pretty special defense. 

I get it. You'll have some point at Homestead's 17 points in regulation, or Carroll's 24 and say, "what would Ben Davis's offense do if they played Snider?" At the end of the day, when they are playing at the top of their game, they are absolutely a "shutdown D." If you're a one dimensional run oriented offense, you're in big trouble. 

They were a solid defense. Ben Davis, Center Grove, Brownsburg, and Cathedral were all balanced offenses run and pass and not 1 dimensional. Ben Davis was very good defensively both run and pass. Center Grove, Brownsburg, and Cathedral were all 3 very very good against the run, but had their struggles in pass defense on the deep ball.

8 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Know several 6A teams looking for opponents, like Center Grove, Cathedral, and others. They take on all comers 

If they had the opening and weren't already under contract with Moeller, Harrison (OH), and Roncalli they probably would have. Nobody knew Roncalli was going to be 4-7 and mediocre just like nobody knew Warren Central (FW Snider's non-conference opponent) would be 5-7 and mediocre. I would put Moeller against Warren Central this year and Harrison vs East Noble this year and bet money on Moeller and Harrison. The rest of the schedule is what it is with conference opponents for Snider and for East Central.

23 hours ago, temptation said:

1. Ben Davis
2. East Central
3. Center Grove
4. Brownsburg
5. Bishop Chatard
6. Fort Wayne Snider
7. Cathedral
8. Crown Point
9. Westfield 
10. Hamilton Southeastern
11. Fishers
12. Penn
13. Decatur Central
14. NorthWood
15. New Palestine
16. Mishawaka 
17. Warsaw
18. Lawrence North
19. Carroll (Fort Wayne)
20. Bloomington South
21. Merrillville
22. Valparaiso 
23. Leo
24. East Noble
25. Indianapolis Lutheran

I can't argue with your top 25. Good job all year honestly.

On 11/25/2023 at 10:55 PM, PantherPride said:

This is what I was saying at the time. The defense was doing decent early and to try an onside kick against a fundamentally sound team like EC is just not the play. They were not caught off guard at all. I’m guessing if you asked Coach Andrews he’d say they were playing to win and felt like they had to be ahead at half. That said it should’ve absolutely been 14-7 at worst at half. Over time then EC wore out Northwood and are to be commended for . Congratulations to both teams, you represented the public schools well. 

From East Central's stand point I don't think going in down at halftime would have an effect on them. No matter the high's or low's they had a veteran team that wouldn't have let it get to them. They would have came out and continued to pound and wear you out. It might have been a boost for Northwood but I think the Trojans would have still wore them out. EC could play the game in many forms with a lead or grinding it out. 

On 11/26/2023 at 12:17 AM, Trojan12 said:

34 carries 251yds 3td

Facing Josh Ringer is different 

Your Trojans were fun to watch all year. Ringer, Brotherton, and Maxwell could break a long run at anytime. What really is fun to watch is a game like this one. Where Ringer gets 4 or 5 yards a pop breaks a couple decent ones, he is comfortable just grinding out drives. Then you look at the stats at the end of the game and he is over the 200 yard mark. Congrats to the Trojans!

On 11/26/2023 at 1:26 AM, vicvinegar said:

Some like to use "city speed" a lot, so does EC have rural speed? Country physicality? Hillbilly strength? Just asking.

East Central has been a hot bed for Running Backs for a LONG time. Josh Martini and Josh Ringer have been 2 of the best to come out of there. They always have terrific RB's and a hard nosed O-line. They have some positions to fill but the cupboard isn't totally bare McCool and Minges will put their best foot forward.

8 hours ago, BTF said:

Homestead was snoring that game. They came back a week later and outplayed Indy's best team for two quarters without their best player. 

I didn't want to hijack the 6A title game, hence me saying "forget it" instead of:

Snider was also a 45 yard field goal from bowing out to Mishawaka. Everyone in the state of Indiana not in attendance at that game deemed Snider "average." At the end of the day, I don't know why Ben Davis almost lost Warren Central anymore than you know why Snider lost to Homestead or almost lost to Mishawaka. Who really cares. None of it changes the fact that both Ben Davis and Snider are state champions. 

What Indy's best team would we be talking about Carmel 2019? If you say Homestead was snoring against Noblesville in the 24-21 OT sectional win, who is to say Carmel wasn't snoring for a half against Homestead in a 31-7 Regional win? (that can work both ways).

I did not think that FW Snider was average after their game against Mishawaka. Mishawaka with their offense forces teams to be patient and if you aren't you can lose. Playing them in Mishawaka was not favorable and their offense can limit your possessions. Snider showed A LOT of moxie winning that game on that FG. I do know why Ben Davis almost lost to Warren Central and I know it is hard for those from Fort Wayne to completely understand. WC vs BD is a classic East Indianapolis vs West Indianapolis rivalry. It gets very "heated" heated and gets into the heads of players from both teams. Add in that WC coach was the former HC at Ben Davis and there was a lot going on in that match-up.

You are 100% correct both Ben Davis and Snider are State Champions. I had the 5A game as being a coin flip game. I saw it as Snider was going to win by at least 14 or DC was going to win by a FG depending on how it played out. The reason I thought Snider would win by at least 14 is because if they got up a couple scores it would force DC to throw which is not their strong point. Ultimately Buchanan's vision and speed broke the game open for Snider, he is a tremendous athlete. Getting up a couple of scores forced DC to throw when they prefer to run. Polston is a solid young QB, but relying on the pass game to win was not going to end well for DC. Congrats to the Panthers they were patient even when backed up with bad field position and Buchanan is definitely a stud with great vision and terrific speed.  

On 11/21/2023 at 1:30 PM, FastpacedO said:

I will repeat I am not speculating on prior years results to skew my opinion. I am stating whole heartedly my opinion from watching on the field play this year 2023. We will soon find out on Saturday, and you can tell me if I am incorrect on how Crown Point plays Ben Davis's talent compared to Brownsburg, Cathedral, or Center Grove. If I am wrong I will promptly admit it after Saturday.

On 11/21/2023 at 8:20 AM, BTF said:

2. You state that like it's a fact. Not sure how you can say that about an undefeated team that destroyed Merrillville and beat Westfield. No one is going to pretend Crown Point is on IMG's level. But Cathedral and Center Grove haven't done anything this year that guarantees they are better than Crown Point. You're making a presumption based on prior years performance. And that's fine. But you're presumptions aren't facts. 

Crown Point had a terrific season and were a solid team. They could not match Ben Davis' athleticism, speed and strength for 4 quarters. Brownsburg, Cathedral, and Center Grove could and did. Brownsburg led throughout and collapsed in the 4th qtr when they struggled to run the ball against BD's defense. Brownsburg had just as much athleticism, speed, and strength as Ben Davis. Cathedral stopped Ben Davis' offense very well in the 2nd half forcing them to kick what ended up being the game winning FG late in the 4th qtr. They still drove down the field late with their QB hobbled and he threw an Int at the endzone from the 26 losing the game. Center Grove stormed back after being down to take the lead in the game relying heavily on their pass game. Ben Davis kicked a FG to tie the game and in OT BD threw a TD to a WR who got his first catch of the night to win in OT. Ultimately Ben Davis while they had the athleticism, speed, and strength also had some moxsy about them to not give up and make plays when it counted.

I don't feel Crown Point was a bad team, they were very good. They just were not quite at the level of those 4 teams on film or in person. Merrillville's athleticism, speed, and strength was nowhere near the level of Ben Davis. It is hard for Crown Point to replicate what Ben Davis would bring because they had not played it all year. They have some good players returning next year and now see what it will take to hit that next level. All 4 teams Ben Davis, Cathedral, Center Grove, and Brownsburg lose some key players next year. It will be interesting. Crown Point still fought hard and should be commended for that. 

24 minutes ago, BTF said:

I know this is a 6A thread, but are we including the other classes? Luers and LCC won four consecutive. That has to trump Center Grove. 

Luers and LCC had great runs and tough teams for them, but CG's run with the schedule they have played the last 5 years is VERY impressive.

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Nope.  Sorry.  Not even close.

Agreed

4 minutes ago, BTF said:

I would argue that many programs could claim they were this or that away from winning a game. I could write a book on that topic regarding my favorite team. I put Center Grove up there with Ben Davis and Penn. I'm not sure what makes the Trojans better than the Giants and Kingsmen. Over all, in all classes, I think we have to look at the four in a row by Luers and LCC. 

Center Grove the last 4 years 51-4 and 59-10 the last 5 years (2019 8-6 lost to Carmel in State Championship 20-17, 2020 14-0 won State, 2021 14-0 won State, 2022 12-2 won State , 2023 11-2 lost to Ben Davis in OT of Semi-State). Not to mention CG has played one of the best schedules each year. I would place CG squarely at Number 2 dynasty. Had they beat Ben Davis likely would have surpassed the WC dynasty. They (Center Grove) also had a great run from 2011 through 2016. Coach Moore has built a strong dynasty at Center Grove.

Here are the Indiana Dynasty ratings from 2001 to today.

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Back on topic…anybody have knowledge of a list of first year head coaches to win a state title?

I don’t but have to believe BD’s Russ Mann would be in a pretty prestigious group were they to win Saturday…

I will have to research that one. I know Coach Bud Wright went to Semi-State his first year. Yeoman also went to Semi-State his first year. There are some that won State their second year as Head Coach. Are we talking 1st year as a Head Coach or first year at a school?

11 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion one way or the other. I think Adams Central, Luers, and Snider win for the North. Kind of funny, seems like alot of people think North Posey will whip Luers. Just like I said about Snider, Luers has played a schedule full of of 4A, 5A, and 6A teams and NP will show them nothing they haven’t seen from much better teams than NP . Maybe NP beats Luers, but it will not be a blowout

Snider has played a couple of teams better than any team Decatur Central played and better than DC. That being said overall schedule wise Decatur Central played less lower rated teams than FW Snider even though a couple of the higher ranked teams Snider played were better than the teams DC played. Calpreps has Strength of Schedule for Decatur Central 47.9 and Snider 46.1 so they are relatively close in SOS overall. Decatur Central's opponents were 89-60 and Sniders were 62-78. Won't really mean a hill of beans, this game will be the best of the 6 games this weekend.

Adams Central over Lutheran I will take Lutheran 28-23.

4 hours ago, BTF said:

Luers  from 2009-2012. Lafayette Central Catholic from 2009-2012. I think those are your next two.

There's been several. I'm sure Ben Davis, Penn, Center Grove, Western Boone, Roncalli, Chatard, Cathedral, and Sheridan would love to be added to the conversation. 

Center Grove was an OT loss by 3 to Ben Davis away from possibly matching Warren Central 4 consecutive  State Championships (they would have had to beat Crown Point which I think they would have). That would have put CG in 5 consecutive State Championships and possibly above the WC dynasty (CG lost to Carmel in 2019 20-17 then won 2020, 2021, and 2022)

23 minutes ago, BTF said:

The difference in 2004 was two lucky touchdowns, an unforced error, and a D1 running back sitting on the sidelines. Just sayin. But I get your point. Games are lopsided for the most part. Penn gave a good showing in 2015. 

Amazing thing about 04 Warren Central was that team had young players filling key positions of the now graduated 03 players (Evans for Bonds, Taylor for Tardy, Bailey for Lacey add in Finch). They did have Hatchet returning at LB. Those young players ended up making a strong 3 year run going 43-2.

5 minutes ago, 00NWP said:

Bold score there...that means you think NW is the one of the worst teams EC has faced all year.

No, he is saying there is no running clock. EC would have beaten several other teams on their schedule by 70 something points but the running clock sped the game up and prevented extra scoring. Northwood is not the worst team EC has played. I don't think it will be 63-14 though.

On 11/19/2023 at 4:47 PM, Komets2727 said:

IHSAA = Idiotic Hideous Stupid Asinine  Association 

On 11/19/2023 at 4:15 PM, Daniel_Bragg said:

I don't know how many people have looked at buying tickets to the Finals on Friday and Saturday, but these fees are outrageous.

3 tickets priced at $15 a piece, after fees, are $67.40!!!  I understand processing fees and convenience fees, but $5.60 per ticket, plus the same price for a processing fee is just obscene.  I hope the IHSAA has a better way to handle this.

Just to clarify. The IHSAA (all though plenty of idiotic decisions) has nothing to do with the cost of ticket fees. The ticket fees are handled by Ticketmaster. Because the games are being played at Lucas Oil Stadium any tickets not bought at the stadium have to go through Ticketmaster. Ticketmaster has the market cornered on ticket sales and since they have arms twisted by using only them, they make sure to "sweep the leg" while they are at it. They also have Gainbridge Fieldhouse and do the same thing. Doesn't matter what event Ticketmaster will "sweep the leg" with processing and convenience fees.

7 hours ago, gindie said:

How would that equate to a "double" forfeit.  Wouldn't that just be a PT forfeit?  In that case, I think the score would be 1-0.

It would be 1-0 in favor of Milan if only Park Tudor forfeited. I was just explaining in the past Park Tudor has been very low on numbers. In the case of this game both teams could have been low enough in numbers that they mutually agreed to forfeit resulting in a 0-0 tie. 

34 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Ben Davis 37 - Crown Point 28

I believe this will be a good game, unlike 3A and 4A. CP is for real and, quite frankly, BD is very fortunate to be here. Honestly, Brownsburg is the best team in the state, they choked an 18 point lead in the 4th quarter against BD. This comes down to athletes in the end, BD has more hence they find a way to win

 

Couldn't the same be said for Crown Point?

I don't think it will be as close as you have it. If I am wrong I will be on here Sunday morning to eat crow and admit it.

1 minute ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

The Cincy Elder coach was quoted as saying Warren was the best high school football team that he had ever seen . That's saying something coming from a Cincy Ohio coach . 

Yes he was dumbfounded by the buzzsaw they ran into. Even told one of the reporters the game film did no justice for their speed or physicality. 

26 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I don't know. I sure hope not from a broadcast perspective, I dislike the black jerseys.

I know from a broadcast perspective what you mean. I can't imagine those involved with 5A (TV or Radio) will be thrilled if Decatur Central wears their white uniforms with gold numbers! Nothing against DC as the uni's look great, but very hard to read numbers especially in the LOS press box!

6 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

58-38-3 Warren...

It was 31-13-3 when Dullaghan took over. Dullaghan cut it to 39-29-3 before losing his last two. So, it was 41-29-3 when he retired.

You're right. This rivalry has been really good recently. Several games in the last 10 years decided by less than a TD...regardless of which team was the better one.

@Rudy might need to update Almanac Sports to be accurate. 

https://www.almanacsports.com/football/series.php?team1=WAR_CEN&team2=BD

1 hour ago, BTF said:

2. Again, you're speculating. There's no way you can say that Crown Point isn't as good as Cathedral and Center Grove. You're letting prior year's results skew your opinions. 

3. I'll take that one back, I don't really think your stupid. I appreciate your passion for high school football even though we disagree. I just think you put too much conviction in your opinions, stating them like they're facts. 

 

I will repeat I am not speculating on prior years results to skew my opinion. I am stating whole heartedly my opinion from watching on the field play this year 2023. We will soon find out on Saturday, and you can tell me if I am incorrect on how Crown Point plays Ben Davis's talent compared to Brownsburg, Cathedral, or Center Grove. If I am wrong I will promptly admit it after Saturday.

You didn't offend me, I've been called much worse. I was told the same thing about conviction in my opinion in 2003 when Penn had to play Warren Central for the then 5A State Championship. Combating those stating how good Penn's defense was. I think @Bobref is still chasing Desmond Tardy for touchdowns. I apologize Penn fans not trying to drum up old memories. I watched that Warren Central team pound eventual Ohio Div 1 State Champion Elder 45-20 at Ryle High School in Kentucky earlier that year. They were really really good. It was nothing personal against Penn.

20 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Warren Central played BD Tough, Snider Whipped Warren Central, Snider barely survived Mishawaka. Penn easily beat Mishawaka, Crown Point Barely beat Penn. Does this mean CP and BD are about even? No Transitive Properties do not work in football.

I get totally what you are pointing to. I very rarely use Ben Davis vs Warren Central as a gauge anymore. It is a classic Eastside vs Westside rivalry game. Believe it or not Warren Central leads the rivalry between the 2 schools 58-35-2. Warren Central got a big lead in the series (like 36-12) until Coach Dullaghan got established there then they started playing catch-up.

19 minutes ago, BTF said:

2.  Someone has to be ranked 1, 2, and 3, right? That doesn't mean Crown Point isn't in the same league as those teams. And for the record, unless you can bring up a receipt, I don't think I proclaimed Cathedral as the fourth best team in the state. They're up there, but I don't think I said that. 

I'm probably not going to stick around for this discussion much longer. I'm doubting your mental capacity to debate with me. 

That's right you will wait until after the games are over to give your rankings. I've stated I feel all 3 of those teams are above Crown Point. Them not being in the State Championship game has to do with not being in the North bracket and in the South Bracket. Very evident by the scores of Sectional Round 1, Regionals, and Semi-State they are right there with Ben Davis.  Ben Davis weathered all 3 and cam out the victors. 

Of course you won't. Insults won't work. Resorting to insulting my mental capacity because you don't like me calling you out on certain things. You stated I am making presumptions off of previous years results. When we have right there in front of us head to head games between all 3 with Ben Davis. You can insult me all you want to avoid answering.