Center Grove and Carmel Losing gate revenue by staying in The MIC

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

Read my post dude.  I didn't say "hundreds of thousands" per year.  

Take your 20K and extrapolate over CGs life in The MIC.  You get a much bigger number.

You are always too quick to jump to conclusions.

Be more thoughtful my friend.

 

I'm not extrapolating anything. You're using a picture for one game from the least travelled fan base in the MIC who plays at Center Grove every other year as a reason why Center Grove should pack its bags and move out of the best conference in the state, and arguably the Midwest.

Next.

[Guest DT]

I've seen many games at CG, in person and on live stream.  The only school that travels anywhere near as well as CG in The MIC is Carmel.  The BD and WC crowds are particularly disappointing.  

HCC fans, parents and followers share the same demographic and socio economic profile with both CG and CA.  Most of The MIC schools do not, hence the huge attendance gap.

It is what it is.

CG leaving lots of dollars on the table.  

Jon Zwitt is a sharp guy.  He wont let that go on forever.

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

I've seen many games at CG, in person and on live stream.  The only school that travels anywhere near as well as CG in The MIC is Carmel.  The BD and WC crowds are particularly disappointing.  

HCC fans, parents and followers share the same demographic and socio economic profile with both CG and CA.  Most of The MIC schools do not, hence the huge attendance gap.

It is what it is.

CG leaving lots of dollars on the table.  

Jon Zwitt is a sharp guy.  He wont let that go on forever.

 

Center Grove also handcuffs themselves to an exclusive HCC schedule. This means no flexibility in scheduling non-conference opponents and off the table are guaranteed games with premier programs such as Ben Davis and Warren Central as well as Cathedral who've they played the last 4 or 5 seasons. Those are Center Grove's measuring sticks. Not worth it in the least if you ask me.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Center Grove also handcuffs themselves to an exclusive HCC schedule. This means no flexibility in scheduling non-conference opponents and off the table are guaranteed games with premier programs such as Ben Davis and Warren Central as well as Cathedral who've they played the last 4 or 5 seasons. Those are Center Grove's measuring sticks. Not worth it in the least if you ask me.

Ben Davis and Warren Central are not going anywhere anytime soon (though a few weeks ago many folks, including myself, had thrown dirt on top of BD.)  But you CANNOT ignore the fact that Avon and Brownsburg are the "next" Ben Davis and Warren Central, if they are not there already.  Many are going to need to see many more years of success, and in particular postseason success to make that claim.

But, team for team lets take a look.

Avon CRUSHED Ben Davis as did Brownsburg (don't let the final score of that game fool you).

Fishers CRUSHED North Central to start the season.

HSE beat LC and lost to North Central by ONE.

Zionsville beat Pike.

Teams improve/get better and if these games were played this weekend, we might get different results, but these are the data points that are readily available.

There is NO denying that the HCC is the conference of the future as this is simple demographics.  Families are moving to the suburbs and population at those donut county schools is climbing and they are starting to push their chips to the middle of the table.  You no longer need to play a "MIC quality schedule" to prepare for the postseason.

People on here LOVE to HATE on DT, but he makes good points and really does generate conversation.

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Photo was taken right before the Trojans come through the tunnel and game start.  Less than 5 minutes prior to start.  I was at the game...attendance didn't change much.

DT does make an interesting point....travel in the MIC is not overly impressive.  (excluding Carmel and CG)  The non-conference game this year with New Pal will bring in the most visiting fans by far.  I'm not sure how much the home team pockets from $6 a person, but I can see where it adds up.  CG only has 4 home games this year during regular season.

If Carmel and CG make the move to the HCC it will become a 10 team conference you're regular season schedule is locked in. Would mean 5 home games one year and 4 the next. Imagine CG's home games being Noblesville, Westfield, Franklin Central, and Fishers and not being able to play Warren or Ben Davis on top of non-conference opponents such as Cathedral and New Pal who I assure you are bringing more fans than the majority of the HCC opponents.

[Guest DT]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

If Carmel and CG make the move to the HCC it will become a 10 team conference you're regular season schedule is locked in. Would mean 5 home games one year and 4 the next. Imagine CG's home games being Noblesville, Westfield, Franklin Central, and Fishers and not being able to play Warren or Ben Davis on top of non-conference opponents such as Cathedral and New Pal who I assure you are bringing more fans than the majority of the HCC opponents.

BD and WC bring nothing to the table financially for CG, and from a competitive standpoint, several HCC schools are competing at or near that level now consistently, and will only improve over time.

The HCC can make up its own conference bylaws.  If it wants to expand to 10 schools and play only 7 or 8 conference games, it can do that.  That would be the preferred option, in my view.  Play 7 league games and 2 con cons, or 8 and 1.  8 and 1 might be optimal.  

Carmel just might be too big for the HCC model.  CG fits perfectly.  Personally, Id like to see CG and Columbus North join the conference.  

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

BD and WC bring nothing to the table financially for CG, and from a competitive standpoint, several HCC schools are competing at or near that level now consistently, and will only improve over time.

The HCC can make up its own conference bylaws.  If it wants to expand to 10 schools and play only 7 or 8 conference games, it can do that.  That would be the preferred option, in my view.  Play 7 league games and 2 con cons, or 8 and 1.  8 and 1 might be optimal.  

Carmel just might be too big for the HCC model.  CG fits perfectly.  Personally, Id like to see CG and Columbus North join the conference.  

 

We’re talking about high school sports here, not major D1 athletics. Opting out of the best conference in the state because you’ll sell more hot dogs and hot chocolate to Zionsville and Fishers fans isn’t it.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

We’re talking about high school sports here, not major D1 athletics. Opting out of the best conference in the state because you’ll sell more hot dogs and hot chocolate to Zionsville and Fishers fans isn’t it.

Look at the demographic patterns.  Where will several of The MIC schools be in 10, 20 years?   

The patterns do not favor the Lawrence schools and Pike.  BD and WC will continue to be dominant primarily due to numbers.

Also look at all the other sports.  Girls sports.  Country club sports.  Baseball.  The HCC is a monumentally better conference for CG than The MIC.  And CG competes better in basketball in the HCC than it does in The MIC.

The MIC is more myth than reality.  It is a very top heavy conference that is still riding on the reputation Ben Davis built for it in the 90s.

Top to bottom, I like the balance and competitive nature of the HCC.

 

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

We’re talking about high school sports here, not major D1 athletics. Opting out of the best conference in the state because you’ll sell more hot dogs and hot chocolate to Zionsville and Fishers fans isn’t it.

But it is the "best conference in the state" for how much longer?  DT is implying that CG could stay ahead of the curve and get out before the obvious happens.  Its just a matter of time.

Brings me back to the point that I have made hijacking multiple threads these past few months...how long is the MIC honestly considered the best conference in the state?  The results this season, though incomplete, speak for themselves.  Is 2019 an anomaly, or the beginning of the shift?

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

But it is the "best conference in the state" for how much longer?  DT is implying that CG could stay ahead of the curve and get out before the obvious happens.  Its just a matter of time.

Brings me back to the point that I have made hijacking multiple threads these past few months...how long is the MIC honestly considered the best conference in the state?  The results this season, though incomplete, speak for themselves.  Is 2019 an anomaly, or the beginning of the shift?

I’ve been hearing that for YEARS. The MIC DOMINATES the two biggest sports, football and basketball, and it’s not close. And it’s not changing. Warren and BD aren’t going anywhere and Carmel is Carmel. I’d argue North Central, if it keeps on its current trajectory, is a ticking time bomb that can push all three of those schools once a solid feeder system has been established.

2019 is an anomaly in my opinion and I think when it’s all said and done there once again will be an all-MIC football and basketball title game.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I’ve been hearing that for YEARS. The MIC DOMINATES the two biggest sports, football and basketball, and it’s not close. And it’s not changing. Warren and BD aren’t going anywhere and Carmel is Carmel. I’d argue North Central, if it keeps on its current trajectory, is a ticking time bomb that can push all three of those schools once a solid feeder system has been established.

2019 is an anomaly in my opinion and I think when it’s all said and done there once again will be an all-MIC football and basketball title game.

But it IS changing.  Don't be blind.  We must have different definitions of "dominates" in 2019...

I'd love to make a gentlemen's bet regarding your last sentence.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, DT said:

The MIC is more myth than reality.  It is a very top heavy conference that is still riding on the reputation Ben Davis built for it in the 90s.

Laugh out freaking loud. Dude, the MIC has won 16 out of the last 19 state titles since the turn of the century. The MIC is STRONGER today than it was when Ben Davis was in a class of their own during the 90s.

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Gentlemen's bet?

Sure

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Laugh out freaking loud. Dude, the MIC has won 16 out of the last 19 state titles since the turn of the century. The MIC is STRONGER today than it was when Ben Davis was in a class of their own during the 90s.

Sure

So just so we are clear, in FOOTBALL you get Carmel and I get the field in 6A north and you can have BD, WC, CG, NC, Pike, LN, LC in 6A south and I get the other 9 teams?

And even if you win that, we get to do it again in basketball season?

Where do I sign?

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, Temptation said:

So just so we are clear, in FOOTBALL you get Carmel and I get the field in 6A north and you can have BD, WC, CG, NC, Pike, LN, LC in 6A south and I get the other 9 teams?

And even if you win that, we get to do it again in basketball season?

Where do I sign?

Yes an all-MIC final in both sports.

Just nod your head.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes an all-MIC final.

Just nod your head.

Don't move the goalposts now.  You said TWO all-MIC finals...

Why not triple down and say boys AND girls basketball?

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Don't move the goalposts now.  You said TWO all-MIC finals...

?

Read my post. An all-MIC final would mean two teams from the MIC playing each other for the state championship. It’s written clear as day.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

?

Read my post. An all-MIC final would mean two teams from the MIC playing for the state championship. It’s written clear as day.

Football + basketball = TWO

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Football + basketball = TWO

 

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes an all-MIC final in both sports.

 

Both=two. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Guest]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

 

Both=two. What is so hard to understand about that?

Nice edit of your post.  Makes perfect sense now.

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Nice edit of your post.  Makes perfect sense now.

 

How can you possibly misconstrue something so simple? Good thing this isn’t for real money because I doubt you can count it. What from my original claim is illegible? 

 

32 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

2019 is an anomaly in my opinion and I think when it’s all said and done there once again will be an all-MIC football and basketball title game.

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Footballking16

[cg_holmeaid]

I personally could see CG in the HCC, but right now in my opinion CG is fine staying in the MIC. Now in the next 2-5 years they may consider moving based on what happens in other sports including football. CG already plays HCC teams in other sports for non-conference games, and they still do just as good as they do against MIC opponents. Now baseball is a different story, as I think that the HCC has the best baseball programs in the state. That would be one sport besides football that I think would be really fun to watch CG play HCC teams in. Now regarding the money from the football games. I don’t think that CG or Carmel would move for that reason only.

Edited October 8, 2019 by cg_holmeaid

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Did you not reply to my original post that is written clear as day asking for a gentleman's bet or do you like to argue just to argue? 

Both actually.  Thanks for asking.

So back to those numbers you were speaking of (as I just learned how to count)...

I get 15/16 odds in 6A north?  (93.8 percent)

I get 9/16 odds in 6A south?  (56.3 percent)

Carmel HAS to win 6A north or your whole bet is shot and even if they do, I get NINE of the 16 teams remaining in the south?

Man, I wish we'd actually put money on this one.  I bet @Coach Nowlinhas an idea...

[HoosierFB_JG]

Love how the MIC has had 16 of the last 19 champions in football, the last 3 in basketball (including 5 of 6 finalists), yet it's fading.  Lawrence Central will most likely win 4A basketball this year and Carmel will most likely be their opponent.  Ben Davis, Carmel and Center Grove were in the Final 4 in basketball last year.

 

HCC is a country club conference right now and I can assure you Carmel wants no part of it with our biggest sports.  

 

Avon and Brownsburg both lose large senior classes in football this year, so we'll see where they're at next year.  HSE hasn't gone anywhere in football.  Noblesville still bad.  Westfield, eh, mediocre.  FC, not good.  Zionsville, not good.  I'll stick with MIC football.

 

BESIDES, by the time the shift does happen, it'll shift back because more and more people are starting to move back into the city.  College grads prefer to be in Indy vs the burbs.

[PHJIrish]

It'll be interesting to see how CG travels to play Cathedral, at Tech, in the regular season finale.  It is a tough drive from and to Center Grove on any Friday night.

[Footballking16]

19 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Both actually.  Thanks for asking.

So back to those numbers you were speaking of (as I just learned how to count)...

I get 15/16 odds in 6A north?  (93.8 percent)

I get 9/16 odds in 6A south?  (56.3 percent)

Carmel HAS to win 6A north or your whole bet is shot and even if they do, I get NINE of the 16 teams remaining in the south?

Man, I wish we'd actually put money on this one.  I bet @Coach Nowlinhas an idea...

Then I’ll gladly send you your very own “Proud winner of a gentleman’s bet” ribbon so you can wear with pride.