Pound for Pound Poll

[temptation]

2 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I knew someone would point that out...I almost qualifed my response but didn't think it woudl be necessary.  So here it is...any P/P that put any focus on football.  Halfway decent coach who will end up being a legend, enough tradition that they can call someone elses field their own, fans that only show up if they are a state contender, etc.

Hater alert incoming…

Bill Peebles:  75% winning percentage at Cathedral…53% winning percentage at Southport/Lawrence Central.

Kevin O’Shea:  92% winning percentage at Lafayette Central Catholic…56% winning percentage at Delta/McCutcheon/Attica/North Central/Twin Lakes.

Just two examples off the top of my head.

 

Edited September 29, 2025 by temptation

[temptation]

8 minutes ago, temptation said:

Hater alert incoming…

Bill Peebles:  75% winning percentage at Cathedral…53% winning percentage at Southport/Lawrence Central.

Kevin O’Shea:  92% winning percentage at Lafayette Central Catholic…56% winning percentage at Delta/McCutcheon/Attica/North Central/Twin Lakes.

Just two examples off the top of my head.

 

Anyone doubting the impact of socioeconomics is either lost or is purposely leaving their head in the sand.

I’ll once again repeat the line that I have stated on this forum for years…

“If you’re going to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage, you better have an enrollment advantage.”

Edited September 29, 2025 by temptation

[RegionFBFan]

Are we talking this season 2025 or over some period of time?

[foxbat]

•  

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Hater alert incoming…

Bill Peebles:  75% winning percentage at Cathedral…53% winning percentage at Southport/Lawrence Central.

Kevin O’Shea:  92% winning percentage at Lafayette Central Catholic…56% winning percentage at Delta/McCutcheon/Attica/North Central/Twin Lakes.

Just two examples off the top of my head.

 

De-hater sanity incoming ...

• LCC number of regional wins, 1976 - 2007 ... 32 years, prior to Kevin O'Shea: 2 ... 6.25%
• LCC number of regional wins, 2007-2016 ... 10 years, with Kevin O'Shea: 6 ... 60%

Sometimes the right mix of coach and kids just happens to come together at the same time.

[RegionFBFan]

Success factor is not a good measure for pound for pound. SF points are determined by accumulating them in one’s said classification. Similar “ pounds” so to speak. 
 

Success in classifications that are above enrollment classification is a good qualifier, schedule strength and record vs schools above their enrollment is another, and margin of defeat vs larger school classes is another.

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, temptation said:

Anyone doubting the impact of socioeconomics is either lost or is purposely leaving their head in the sand.

I’ll once again repeat the line that I have stated on this forum for years…

“If you’re going to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage, you better have an enrollment advantage.”

Speaking of such, interesting that six of the top 10 pound-for-pounds are outside of +/- standard deviation for FRL.  Of note, with a couple of p/ps mentioned in this thread for comparison:

Andrean/Chatard as a datapoints, here's a bit of comparison: Andrean FRL 25.3% (https://indianagps.doe.in.gov/Summary/school/2403)/Chatard FRL 19.3% (https://indianagps.doe.in.gov/Summary/School/2351)

From the original pound-for-pound list - FRL %

1.   New Palestine 24.8%

2.  Adams Central 24.5%

3.  Decatur Central 56.2%

4.  Lafayette Jefferson 58%

5.  East Central 18.9%

6.  Heritage Hills 28.7%

7.  East Noble 32.5%

8.  Gibson Southern 23.7%

9.  Westfield 18.9%

10. Merrillville 47.3%

• Indiana average by school across all public schools ... includes schools that provide meals for all of their students: 48.9%
• Indiana median across all public schools: 48.9%
• Indiana standard deviation across all public schools: 18.7%
• Indiana +/- 1 stddev range across all public schools: 30.2 - 67.6%
• +2 stddev or higher regarding FRL% impact (positive)
• numbers for public schools calculated using IDOE data from their site

[temptation]

6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Speaking of such, interesting that six of the top 10 pound-for-pounds are outside of +/- standard deviation for FRL.  Of note, with a couple of p/ps mentioned in this thread for comparison:

Andrean/Chatard as a datapoints, here's a bit of comparison: Andrean FRL 25.3% (https://indianagps.doe.in.gov/Summary/school/2403)/Chatard FRL 19.3% (https://indianagps.doe.in.gov/Summary/School/2351)

From the original pound-for-pound list - FRL %

1.   New Palestine 24.8%

2.  Adams Central 24.5%

3.  Decatur Central 56.2%

4.  Lafayette Jefferson 58%

5.  East Central 18.9%

6.  Heritage Hills 28.7%

7.  East Noble 32.5%

8.  Gibson Southern 23.7%

9.  Westfield 18.9%

10. Merrillville 47.3%

• Indiana average by school across all public schools ... includes schools that provide meals for all of their students: 48.9%
• Indiana median across all public schools: 48.9%
• Indiana standard deviation across all public schools: 18.7%
• Indiana +/- 1 stddev range across all public schools: 30.2 - 67.6%
• +2 stddev or higher regarding FRL% impact (positive)
• numbers for public schools calculated using IDOE data from their site

Good stuff.

So those outliers truly are top dog when it comes to pound for pound.

Maybe we can even incorporate a formula that calculate SOS, W/L record and FRL to get an even more accurate picture.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2025 by temptation

[foxbat]

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

Good stuff.

So those outliers truly are top dog when it comes to pound for pound.

Maybe we can even incorporate a formula that calculate SOS, W/L record and FRL to get an even more accurate picture.

 

 

I'll put it on my "things to do in retirement" list. 

[23andCounting]

5 hours ago, temptation said:

“If you’re going to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage, you better have an enrollment advantage.”

Warren Central and Ben Davis.

[adambetz]

Top 10 p4p p/p

1. Andrean

2. Indianapolis Lutheran

3. Evansville Mater Dei

4. Fort Wayne Luers

5. Evansville Memorial

6. Indianapolis Chatard

7. Indianapolis Cathedral

8. Providence

9. Heritage Christian

10. Brebeuf Jesuit

Edited September 30, 2025 by adambetz

[23andCounting]

7 hours ago, adambetz said:

Top 10 p4p p/p

1. Andrean

2. Indianapolis Lutheran

3. Evansville Mater Dei

4. Fort Wayne Luers

5. Evansville Memorial

6. Indianapolis Chatard

7. Indianapolis Cathedral

8. Providence

9. Heritage Christian

10. Brebeuf Jesuit

Presuming this is all time? No Dwenger? 

Reminder, this topic was intended to be 2025 only. 

[Muda69]

16 hours ago, temptation said:

I’ll once again repeat the line that I have stated on this forum for years…

“If you’re going to be at a socioeconomic disadvantage, you better have an enrollment advantage.”

I'm not even sure how relevant that is at times.  Again, look at Frankfort.  A "4A" school where all their losses this season have come at the hands of 1A, 2A, & 3A schools.  Since 2020 the only other 4A school they played in the regular season was Lebanon, and that was due to them being a conference foe.    That enrollment advantage isn't worth squat. 

 

[23andCounting]

35 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I'm not even sure how relevant that is at times.  Again, look at Frankfort.  A "4A" school where all their losses this season have come at the hands of 1A, 2A, & 3A schools.  Since 2020 the only other 4A school they played in the regular season was Lebanon, and that was due to them being a conference foe.    That enrollment advantage isn't worth squat. 

 

C'mon. Look no further than the dominance of the three largest enrollment schools. Over 30 state titles between Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central. The advantage of having more kids to choose from is just common sense. If you can't win football games at a large enrollment school, you're probably either 1) Not a good football coach, or 2) don't have the passion it takes to build a program. Kevin Wright wouldn't take over at Southport or Jeffersonville no matter how much money you paid him. He goes where he knows he can win championships..........Carmel and Warren Central. He knows those large enrollment schools give him an advantage. He's smart.

[Muda69]

19 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

 If you can't win football games at a large enrollment school, you're probably either 1) Not a good football coach, or 2) don't have the passion it takes to build a program. 

Socioeconomics rear their ugly head again.  Can Mr. Wright build a state championship caliber football program at a school the size of Carmel but has a 90%+ of it's students on free/reduced lunches?

 

 

Edited September 30, 2025 by Muda69

[23andCounting]

17 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Socioeconomics rear their ugly head again.  Can Mr. Wright build a state championship caliber football program at a school the size of Carmel but has a 90%+ of it's students on free/reduced lunches?

Of course. We're talking 5000 students Muda. Not all kids on the free lunch program have poor home lives. Let's say half of them do. We're talking about 500 students not on the program and 2250 who are on the program but are kids who are well taken care of. Kevin Wright is winning a state championship under those circumstances. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, 23andCounting said:

Of course. We're talking 5000 students Muda. Not all kids on the free lunch program have poor home lives. Let's say half of them do. We're talking about 500 students not on the program and 2250 who are on the program but are kids who are well taken care of. Kevin Wright is winning a state championship under those circumstances. 

Disagree that it would be that simple.

Edited September 30, 2025 by temptation

[foxbat]

18 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

Of course. We're talking 5000 students Muda. Not all kids on the free lunch program have poor home lives. Let's say half of them do. We're talking about 500 students not on the program and 2250 who are on the program but are kids who are well taken care of. Kevin Wright is winning a state championship under those circumstances. 

 

40 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Socioeconomics rear their ugly head again.  Can Mr. Wright build a state championship caliber football program at a school the size of Carmel but has a 90%+ of it's students on free/reduced lunches?

 

 

Warren Central's FRL is a bit over 58%.  Carmel's is much lower at between 13-14%.  Heck, that's better than Chatard's percentage.  Ben Davis is over 73%.

Realistically, 90% FRL doesn't exist for many high school football programs in Indiana. 

496

922

53.8%

Frankfort's reported FRL is 496 students and 922 is total reported student enrollment.  The 53.8% is the result of FRL divided by total enrollment.  I think a more realistic discussion is not whether Wright could create a championship program at a 90% FRL, but rather could he do so at somewhere like 3A Speedway which has around a 56% FRL number? 

Similarly, an interesting discussion would be what mid-/high- FRL 1A, 2A, 3A programs would/could a coach like Wright be able to make a positive impact on, if any, and why if so?  

[temptation]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

 

Warren Central's FRL is a bit over 58%.  Carmel's is much lower at between 13-14%.  Heck, that's better than Chatard's percentage.  Ben Davis is over 73%.

Realistically, 90% FRL doesn't exist for many high school football programs in Indiana. 

496

922

53.8%

Frankfort's reported FRL is 496 students and 922 is total reported student enrollment.  The 53.8% is the result of FRL divided by total enrollment.  I think a more realistic discussion is not whether Wright could create a championship program at a 90% FRL, but rather could he do so at somewhere like 3A Speedway which has around a 56% FRL number? 

Similarly, an interesting discussion would be what mid-/high- FRL 1A, 2A, 3A programs would/could a coach like Wright be able to make a positive impact on, if any, and why if so?  

I think your Warren/BD numbers are wrong.

[First_Backer_Inside]

Just so I can make sure I'm following, if your kids can pay for their own lunch chances of finding 11 guys who can put the ball in the end zone, and 11 guys who can keep people from putting the ball in the end zone goes up? Just taking notes, so I can walk through our cafeteria, and know who to tell to come out for the football team next year. I bet guys like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning could pay for a lot of lunch in high school.

[23andCounting]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

Disagree that it would be that simple.

He didn't do so bad at Warren Central. His system works. He's the Cignetti of high school football. Carmel might be the best team in the state his first season there. 

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I think your Warren/BD numbers are wrong.

Actually, BD is around 69%, counting 9th grade too.  Warren Central is 58.2%.

https://www.in.gov/doe/files/school-enrollment-ethnicity-and-free-reduced-price-meal-status-2006-25-final.xlsx

 

 

[temptation]

44 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

He didn't do so bad at Warren Central. His system works. He's the Cignetti of high school football. Carmel might be the best team in the state his first season there. 

Warren Central 20-25 years ago was MUCH different than Warren Central today.

Edited September 30, 2025 by temptation

[23andCounting]

4 minutes ago, temptation said:

Warren Central 20-25 years ago was MUCH different than Warren Central today.

You sure? Got any evidence to back that up? Up here in Fort Wayne, the mass migration outside of the donut happened in the 90's.

I saw last year in person how much talent that school still has. 

Edited September 30, 2025 by 23andCounting

[Muda69]

20 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Actually, BD is around 69%, counting 9th grade too.  Warren Central is 58.2%.

https://www.in.gov/doe/files/school-enrollment-ethnicity-and-free-reduced-price-meal-status-2006-25-final.xlsx

 

 

Excel.  Kill me now...................

 

[temptation]

7 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

You sure? Got any evidence to back that up? Up here in Fort Wayne, the mass migration outside of the donut happened in the 90's.

I saw last year in person how much talent that school still has. 

I mean, I can use the same excel link provided above.

In 2006 (the farthest back the online DOE data goes), Warren had a 29% FRL rate.

So its doubled.