US31

4 hours ago, MarshallCounty said:

Demographics change, interests dropped, coaches retired, other regions have stepped up.  

I agree with this 100%....with some further specifics.

Demographics/Economics changes in the last few decades across most all of Northern, IN.  (Ft Wayne to a lesser degree).  With a significant amount of population movement from the Region and SB/Elk area to Northern Burbs of Indy.  I live in Hamilton County and can hardly keep count the number of Duneland/NIC/NLC folks that are down here now.  A LOT of Legacy families from all of those programs are now in the Indy Metro area....specifically Northern/Western Burbs.  At my kids' ball games, I know people from Penn, Hobart, Jimtown, Valpo, LaPorte, Goshen, Plymouth, etc, etc, etc.  These are guys who were GREAT players in all the blue blood programs (I don't count myself one of them😋).  That is a lot of football "culture" being exported from Northern, IN to the Indy Burbs.

More specifically, Penn is NOT a "Mega" school anymore and has not been able to keep pace with the growth of the MIC/HCC schools.  They would fit nicely in the middle of both of those conferences across most all sports.  Being at the top some years in some.

Maybe most importantly.....some of the legends of Indiana Football have been retired for a long time.....Gees, Howell, Sharpe, etc.  Their contemporaries are drawn to the FtW, Indy Metro areas.  Hopefully this ebb will flow in time....in my football soul, I want to see the NLC, NIC, & Region football get back to par with the Indy Metro

On 2/12/2020 at 10:24 AM, Garman54 said:

You of course meant James Francis Ryan. Daniel Patrick was one of his brothers that were killed, I believe. 

from Iowa....do you know him?

Watched some off an on....only saw 1 KO.  

Is it possible for a team to OSK under those rules?  If so how does it work?

7 hours ago, southend said:

Most if not all D3 schools set aside ,half of their scoli money ,or more, for athletics, so your statement is a little misleading. 

Interesting...I was a 4 year letterman and 3 year starter.  I don't remember getting any of that "Scoli" money....nor did any of my teammates.  2 guys that lived on my floor freshman year were getting about half paid for for financial reasons....they didn't even play sports to my knowledge.  

Where do I file my grievance?😁

Fisher - OT, Avon

On 1/5/2020 at 8:42 AM, oldtimeqb said:

Until Indianapolis wisens up (not likely) and realizes they should be central time, heat will be an issue for 82 counties early in the season.

http://sagarin.com/counties/timezone.htm

This in spades....and twice on Sunday.  Why we are on "east coast" time is a mystery to me.  I could go on and on about why....but it would derail the topic.  Without DST we were at least on a "normal" schedule half the year.

5 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Here's what we should do. We should divide the number of schools in half in 6A and award 16 different trophies. BD/Carmel would play a single playoff game. Winner gets a trophy and so on.

The Carmel/BD game would be the Silver Dollar Bowl.  Betty White (the last living Golden Girl) would flip the Silver Dollar before the game. 

It would be played at Elwood high School....

....at dusk.

10 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Again....if we plan to separate the top 16 from the rest....but members of that top 16 that are 3000 plus still can't win a sectional, then what are we solving?  Shouldn't your proposal be to separate the Big 3 only?  BTW, NC is 4th with over 3700 students.  If size is the only variable, shouldn't they have had more success prior to Coach O'Shea?  Hasn't their program improved significantly since he took over the ship?

No, i would not define dominance by winning less than 50% of your sectionals over a 15 year span.  But that is only my opinion.  Others may feel different.  

I think everyone really agrees there is no easy answer because that is the problem.  You have a very small number of schools that are MUCH larger than everyone else.  You could argue its really a SUPER 2 (Carmel - 5300, BD 4500), The NEXT 2 (WC - 3800, NC 3700), and then from Fishers on down everyone is withing about 100 kids of the next school.  I think in a perfect world you would never classify schools together if one is twice the size of another but its hard to draw that line in Indiana unless you just put BD and Carmel in their own class.  Those 2 are the real outliers, and I don't have an answer for it.  

If you feel its unfair for 2055 Zville to be in the same classification as 5300 Carmel...you're probably right.

If you feel that other factors (outside of enrollment) contribute to success...you're probably right.

If you feel there isn't a workable solution when its really 2 (or 3...or 4) schools that are the real outliers....you're probably right.

4 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I guess....I went to the John Harrell site and looked up BD's history from 2005-2019.  They won 7 sectionals out of that 15 year span.  They lost more sectionals than they won.  BD is the 2nd largest school in the state.

I agree more with your second sentence...but would have to thrown out North Central and Fishers....not sure I would throw them out because size with them doesn't equal dominance.  Again, would logic tells us based on the arguments supporting another class of football that we should simply break off Carmel, WC and BD?

Winning half your sectionals isn't being dominant....(honest question)?  Keep in mind on a few occasions they were in the same sectional as WC.  I'd bet many of the other losses were to Avon or Pike...both schools over 3000.

Fishers shares a sectional with Carmel most years....there is your answer for that.

North Central shares a sectional with at least 1 of the Big 3 every year....there is your answer for that.

3 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

 

Some absolutely are....but if the differential in students in smaller and its all about size, shouldn't we expect to see them being more successful over time?

I'm just trying to follow the logic

I think the "logic" is the entire point of this thread....you do see variety.  EXCEPT for the sectionals occupied by the big 3 MIC schools....Carmel, BD, WC.

Once you get down to the Penn's and Lake Central's of the world (3500 on down,) the size discrepancy is easier to overcome with a good class, good coaching, favorable demographics, solid program, etc.

5 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Just explain why there are plenty of other schools with 3000 plus students that don't have greater success.  I'm not talking just state championships....Winning sectionals...or going deeper in the playoffs.  I get size plays a significant role...but I contend that the equation for success has other important variables.

 

Because many of these 3000+ schools are in the same sectionals

20 hours ago, US31 said:

I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  The outliers are at the ends of the bell curve....the mega large and micro small.  Not much difference in between.

Combine with rolling 4 year SF cycle and you've got something.  

my 2 cents

Let me shred my own a idea a bit....if 6A was Big 16 and 1A was little 16, then the remaining 4 classes would be over 70 schools...wouldn't work with an all in format unless you added a weekend for 2A-4A.  As DT has suggested....most of this would really require a 7th class. 

My maths wuz bad....but Its fun to think about....🙃

A bye week after season and a bye week at "Semi State" weekend.  If that is a "problem" those two games could be played on a Friday or Saturday double header another weekend.  Friday double headers are common throughout the season.  Although I get the tradition of the Thanksgiving weekend.  

I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  The outliers are at the ends of the bell curve....the mega large and micro small.  Not much difference in between.

Combine with rolling 4 year SF cycle and you've got something.  

my 2 cents

How do you handle people in the team box that are not affiliated with either team?  We got a sideline warning earlier this year when a cameraperson for one of our well known Indy media entities was in the stripe during a play.  Now, we may have very well deserved a warning at some point, but it wasn't on that play. 😇  

Anyone had this come up before?  If so how did you address it, and how would a HC best address it with the crew?

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

But it’s clear by now - with a relatively large sample size - that he is unable to win the really significant games needed to push the Irish to the level of Alabama,  Clemson, Oklahoma, etc.

This is more to do with Kelly's coaching and less to do with the fact ND limits his ability to recruit the same talent pool (as Bama, Clem, OU, etc)? 

This is the same gripe made about every coach since Lou (and arguably Lou at the end of his tenure).  I'm not buying that....not going to retype my post from pages ago, but its up to ND as a University to decide what it wants. 

A.  Be the best of the Northwesterns & Standfords (a fine thing to be btw)

B.  Or be one of the dominant football teams in the nation every year.  

Currently they seem to be A in actual practice, but claim to be B and blame the coach when the fan base gets frustrated.  Too much of the fan base buys that line IMHO.....

my 2 cents and worth as much...😀

The "Holy Fathers" need to decide if they really want to be all in on a being a "National Power".  If you are only going to recruit Stanford/Northwestern type STUDENT ATHLETES...you are going to be, on the average, Stanford and Northwestern.  Nothing wrong with that at all.

If you want to beat Alabama, Clemson, etc.  You need to recruit the same FOOTBALL players Alabama & Clemson are recruiting, and not worry too much about whether or not they will be able to pass freshman Calculus at Notre Dame.

At some point Notre Dame, as an institution, needs to realize its not every coach they've hired the past 2 and a half decades that has limited them.  My understanding, is Lou had a much wider hand in the athletes he could recruit and sign.

On 10/17/2019 at 2:23 PM, Slick John Picanos said:

Wawasee @ Goshen (PK)- Sagarin has Wawasee as 4-5 point favorites, but I just can't count out the Pride of the Redhawk and their desire to win the Traveling Chief Trophy.  

Sadly, they don't play for the Chief anymore because #feelings...

They should make space suits out of whatever fabric his pants are made of....normal polyester could not withstand the forces that were just applied to those britches!

On 10/9/2019 at 9:26 AM, Footballking16 said:

 Westfield could very well split into two high schools 10-15 years down the road....

Westfield is a single township school and doesn't even have a second middle school currently.  Not gonna happen.

This season....Blake Fisher, OT, Avon....and its not even close.

15 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Can we refrain from using a certain term that does not need to be used to get a simple message across of being upset. 

 

Colon sore???

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

I have a hard time thinking of HCC or any MIC schools as “Northern.”

For the purposes of Penn getting to State, the IHSAA says they are....😁.

Overall I agree with you though....the growth around the Indy donut, has far outpaced any other part of the state.  Thats the reason for Northern 5A/6A decline....a lot of people in Indy Metro assume Penn is the size of BD or Warren.  When I point out they are almost 2000 kids smaller than Carmel it shocks people.  For that matter I doubt most "casual" fans even know how much bigger Carmel is than the rest of the MIC.  5200 students, plus being the only MIC school in the Northern half of 6A...thats a nice problem to have.  

Just now, Bobref said:

This may say more about the decline of “big school football” in the Northern half of the state than anything else.

I don't disagree, given rest of MIC goes south and most of HCC does too....but Fishers, HSE, Carmel, Westfield, Snider, Penn isn't too shabby.  Penn is smaller than Fishers, and HSE will pass them soon.  It will be interesting to see how Penn does as it faces HCC schools down the road.  It really fits that group of schools well in size and athletics etc.

19 minutes ago, FormerCoach said:

Penn is not and will not be a dominant force in the STATE (dare I say) EVER again. 

Ok...so Penn is in a down cycle....last year and this year.....

However COMMA they played in the semi-state game the previous FIVE SEASONS, and were State-Runner up THREE TIMES in the last 8 seasons.  During those last five seasons, they beat Carmel TWICE and lost another time by one point.   Carmel, by the way, is over 5 THOUSAND students....Penn has an enrollment of about 3500.  That makes for a VERY AVERAGE sized metro Indy school.  I fail to see the lack of dominance given any measurables.  All schools have a down cycle....Ben Davis is in one right now....would you say the same about them???

ETA: I looked it up...Penn is a little over 3300 students.

Also, I agree with much of what FormerCoach said about scheduling.  Many MIC/HCC teams are scheduling the likes of StX, Trinity, etc...Penn should be doing the same.