US31

To be honest DE isn't the one exhibiting butt hurt.  

Others just seem to think its impossible that anyone could have a logical reason to disagree with them.

I'm going to guess that person might speak up fairly soon....🤪

23 hours ago, Wedgebuster said:

Is it travelling distance or is it schools trying to justify kids getting home so late at night for a JV tennis match on a Tuesday?   

This....the issue isn't travel distances on Friday nights on the fall.  It all of the weeknight events in all your other sports.  We are myopic when it comes to football, but the effect on other sports and the weeknight contests is the big factor.

On 1/2/2021 at 9:21 AM, JustRules said:

What you know as spearing is targeting in NCAA. That was an easy call on video but tougher to get in person as quickly as it happened and how it happened. The back judge is probably the only one would see the helmet contact and he's more focused on blocks in front of the runner at that point. The wings wouldn't have an angle and the umpire is straight lined from the other side and don't see the proximity of the defender's helmet. If the defender keeps his head up there is no foul there. The NCAA keeps that foul and keeps it punitive with the ejection because they still want to see that behavior change. Overall I believe the data has shown it has improved. This kind of hit is much more dangerous for the player initiating the hit than the one receiving the hit. Neck injuries and concussions are very common when using the crown of your helmet.

Reminded me of the Marc Buoniconi hit....glad he was ok.  

When I was in college, there was a video (Dick Vermeil narrated it) about neck injuries that included game film from "head down" tackles that led to paralysis or death (Chucky Mullins may have been one?).  Had to watch it each year before contact practices.  Not sure if it was an NCAA thing, or something we did.  Was one of the most miserable things I've ever had to watch.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/12/04/texas-football-player-escorted-out-of-game-by-police-after-assaulting-referee/

Apparently this was a "play-in" game for Texas Playoffs.  The blue team won, but today the school district has decided to pull the team from the playoffs.

Ugly all the way around.  It does sound like the official (27 year veteran) is going to be ok.  

Further, the kid who attacked the official had a very bright athletic future, in football & wrestling.  But he has apparently had issues like this in the past. 

Terrible waste.

@Bobref

In regards to "generate revenue"....how would less tournament games achieve this?  I would piggy back this on top of the dismissal of "because we can".

I'm not disagreeing with much of your proposal, there is a lot to agree with from a football perspective.  But if "we can" do an all in tournament, in order to "generate more revenue"....isn't that the responsible thing for the IHSAA to do?

I would definitely agree with anything that would get us "better games" (via seeding, neutral sites, rolling success factor, etc), but not necessarily "less games" for reasons above.

I think there is more happening off screen that we can't see....something more than just the one player charging the official.

1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

I don't think recruiting is an issue and we know kids move around to publics in the current environment so I'm not sure why this keeps coming up.  It's not the issue.  There are publics all over the state who have CYO like youth leagues, feeder systems etc. but all things being equal they are still disadvantaged in comparison to their enrollment equal on the private side of the fence....why?  It's been said here already, it's not what privates have....it's what they don't have.  They don't have a subset of the student population that doesn't do anything related to extracurriculars at all.  They don't have to deal with that type of Human.  In addition, EVERY public has this situation regardless of the socioeconomic status of the neighborhood the building happens to be in.  All of them.

Very well said.  Every kid at Cathedral is a recruit, otherwise they would have no student body....even the kid that just wants to take AP classes and play the violin has been recruited at least by reputation, advertisement, or other (I personally know someone who sent their kid there for this specific reason...I have no personal knowledge of why Cathedral is a great place to play violin, but I'm told it is 😀).

The imbalance comes from the kids PPs don't have to count.  Being able to quantify the amount of kids that might participate in "something/anything" seems to be a logical and way to count enrollment for extracurricular (i.e. football) classification.

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

That may work until the football crazy administration decides to dissolve the extracurricular chess club because the 10 or so members would bump the largest 3A football school to now the smallest 4A school.  

What I'm suggesting is a "clearinghouse" form that every kid who WANTS to participate in ANY extracurricular would have to fill out at beginning of year.  Most schools have something like this already that serves as code of conduct/drug testing/etc form.  You aren't counting specific kids in each extracurricular, you are having them declare their intended interest.  Some of these kids may not even go out for sports, band, the play, student council, etc.  But they are a potential "participant" and would be counted as such for IHSAA classification.  I imagine DOE would find some purpose for this data as well.

Somewhere back in the depths of old PP debate archives there is a longer (and likely better) version of this proposal...but now I'm old with less brain cells🤪

On 11/29/2020 at 10:57 AM, Grover said:

Don't drop to the old hate/envy argument.  There's rational thought to the animosity.  Public schools have to accept pretty much everybody in their school district.  In today's world it is difficult to find an acceptable way to word it but let's just compare the percentage of students participating in extracurriculars at private vs. public schools.  Public schools have a much larger percentage of students who simply show up.  They contribute nothing to the school system EXCEPT increasing the enrollment and (in the sports world) bumping the school up to a bigger division.  Is that controlling enrollment?  No.  Is it a huge advantage for the privates?  Absolutely.  Does that mean I hate or envy the privates?  Not even a little.  My wife's family is a Ritter family.  I have many friends from Roncalli and Cathedral.  I've also been involved in highly competitive youth football for 20 years and crediting the success of the privates to the CYO league is avoiding the obvious.

Agree with Grover....

I have always been an advocate of a "clearninghouse" system.  That counted the number of kids that participate in ANY extracurricular (sports, music, etc).  That is your "participant" enrollment.  For PP's and affluent public schools this number will be near or over 90% of their total enrollment.  For schools with struggling "demographics" (however you want to determine that)....it may be 50% of total enrollment or lower.

The issue isn't the kids that publics/PPs count....the issue it the kids that PP's don't "have to count".  

1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Interesting take.  Not a knock or anything, but could this lead to "culling" for numbers/classification?  In most schools, I think football is a "no-cut" sport, so you get lots of kids who play even if they don't play a bunch on Friday night.  Would teams feel compelled or at least enticed to cut kids to slim down?  For smaller schools, wouldn't it quickly increase their classification without necessarily a corresponding pound-for-pound equivalency?  For example, Trader Point Christian has 128 kids in the school.  Assume half are boys: 64.  Their roster shows 24 on the team which gives you 37.5%. For a school like Carmel, which has 5,286 kids, half for boys would be 2,643.  At 37.5%, that would be 991 kids that would be need to play to get to Trader's Point 37.5%.  I think you'd need something other than a linear formula for this.

The best 6% of football players from a BIG pool of players will be VASTLY superior to the best 6% of football players from a SMALL pool of players.

So.......

Hickory High:  Total Enrollment = 400 students, Male enrollment = 200.  Football Team = 35.  

35/200 = 17.5%

SuperSuburb  High:  Total Enrollment = 5000, Male enrollment = 2500.  Football Team = 150

150/2500 = 6%

Metro High:  Total Enrollment = 2500, Male Enrollment = 1250, Football Team = 50

50/1250 = 4%

Who does the following school get classified with?

Pope John's High: Total Enrollment = 700, Male enrollment = 350, Football Team = 90 (or more)

90/350 = 26%

3 hours ago, Titan32 said:

We have all seen it...but nice job reminding us of some interesting statistics!

This stands out to me a bit.  I had not looked at it this way.

Before SF PPs (6% of our schools) made up 80% of State Championship winners.  After SF PPs (6% of our schools) make up 33% of all State Champion winners.  Semi-State drop off from 63% to 25% is huge as well.

IMO the effect of success factor on PPs is this....

Periodically Cathedral will bump up to 6A, Roncalli to 5A, Chatard to 4A, etc limiting their tournament "success" (Although this years teams are a beast, and would be successful in those classes)

and/or

Periodically some combination of Cathedral, Roncalli, Dwenger, Chatard, etc get moved around so that formerly "separate" PP powers now can knock each other out.

This year you have something "unusual" in the success factor era.  Several PP powers have dropped back "down" along with many of the geographically close schools being spread out in the classes.  I think this year is the SF anomaly...not a return to normal, as SF could potentially kick some of them up to where they will see other PP powers in their new class; or be in a class that is more competitive for that particular PP (e.g. Cathedral in 6A, Roncalli in 5A, etc)

15 hours ago, JustRules said:

If you want officials to be this technical you will not be happy with the 30-40 flags you 'll see in a game. No formation would ever be legal because there is always a "back" who is breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (usually a slot or wing). Every jersey tug would be a hold. Most kickoffs would be stopped because one player is breaking the plane of the neutral zone before kicked. Look at what happened in the NFL a few years ago when the officials were instructed to get more technical on calling holding. It was a disaster and everyone hated watching the games. It led to the famous change at halftime of a MNF game when Tom Brady tweeted blasting the league for this philosophy.

This play meets the criteria of too technical to call illegal motion or false start.

If that play was 4th and Goal to take the lead in a close game, would you feel the same way....honest question.

On 11/14/2020 at 7:29 AM, JustRules said:

It's close but if you go frame by frame the ball starts moving one frame after he starts moving forward. You don't want officials to be that technical.

I disagree with this as well....frame by frame he's driving forward off his left foot a few frames before the ball moves.  Its close, we disagree, thats why we have all the fun on Fridays!😇

Da Bears have ownership/management issues that preclude any success from personnel and coaching changes.  Having personal friends that have played in the organization as well as others in the NFL...none of them felt Da Bears were a well run organization.  In fact quite to the contrary, they constantly talked about how poorly things were run from the top down compared to others.

Until ownership allows/hires the correct people at the top....don't expect more from anyone who takes the helm.  Probably also a reason quality people avoid this job like the plague.

ETA (don't read further unless you want to hear a rant on ND.)😇

As an aside....the same problem exists at ND.  Until the Holy fathers allow ND to recruit the same kids that Clemson and Alabama recruit, don't say you are "all in" on being the top program in the country you aren't....you're just the best of the Northwesterns and Stanfords (which is a commendable thing to be!).  But if ND is more worried about weather or not a freshman can take calculus....than weather or not they can help ND beat Clemson/Alabama/etc...they aren't really dedicated to that goal (and again...that ok!  But don't claim to be....and don't blame the coaches that have all had success everywhere else).  Kelly has done an AMAZING job in SPITE of ND's standards.

2 hours ago, DT said:

 

As this area becomes more affluent, it also becomes more enamored with the lake life style, RVs and traveling, and general leisure.  Hard core activities like football, hunting, and  ice fishing are becoming passe'   They take too much time and effort.  

Was this supposed to be in purple??🤪

Elkhart & St Joe counties are becoming "more affluent"?  Compare to the 80's/90's?????  

Obviously this is why Indy Metro Teams from Hamilton, Boone, Hendricks, Johnson, & Hancock counties were terrible....the affluence guaranteed their terrible performance.

14 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

I think it’s time to close this thread. A few posters have made this a full-time job.

Cant' they just give them a virtual timeout for a week or two like other forums do...instead of closing otherwise ok topics and discussion?

11 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Disagree.

You are welcome too🤪

4 hours ago, Bobref said:

Please elaborate.

FB attacks forward presnap....thats what I see.

The fact they motioned the big dude directly behind QB to do this with intent at the snap isn't enough??????🤪

1 hour ago, MICFan34 said:

Ben Davis, Warren, Center Grove, all seem like solid options with massive seat capacity, if they decide to go away from LOS. 

The proposed problem is Marion County though....correct?  Not LOS specifically.

  CG would be an option....some HCC schools.

So reward unsuccessful programs for (possibly) tanking??🤔

36 minutes ago, Lysander said:

 

Just get rid of 5A entirely and average them out over the 4 classes below and go back to 5 classes.  There is no competitive reason not to do it since they are not and have never been (excepting Snider) competitive with the existing 4A teams.

I thought a version of this was the way to go back when it got introduced.....

Take out the 6A (top 32, 16, whatever).  Average the rest out in 5 classes.  Combine that with a 3 year "rolling" success factor.

I just don't see the IHSAA ever going back to only 5 state championship games when they could sell tickets for 6.  I personally think 6 is a good number.  You can comfortably play 3 games in a day and it makes Fri/Sat after Thanksgiving a solid weekend of Indiana Football.

42 minutes ago, DT said:

That sounds like a good thing 

Not saying it would be bad....just an observation.  Chatard would be the hot girl at the party🤪

16 hours ago, BTF said:

If we are being honest with ourselves, the 6a class is an even bigger problem than the dominance of the p/p's. Cut it in half............from 32 to 16..............problem solved. 

 

Difference between 1 & 16 in 6A = 2690 (Carmel and LN)

Difference between 16 & 32 in 6A = 561 (LN and Jeffersonville)

The 6A problem is really Carmel & BD....or possibly the top 5.  But once you get down to 3500 there is a pretty steady decline through the rest of the class.

As far a success factor, I would be open to a "rolling" 3 year success factor...but that would require a readjustment of classification every year.

2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

One idea I've heard floated in other states - to use the higher number of your school's enrollment OR the average enrollment of your opponents (largest & smallest excepted so playing Carmel doesn't skew the numbers). 

 A lot of 4-5A schools would be fighting to schedule 2-3A PP's in their non-conference schedule.

The fact that IHSAA website still has the "normal" state finals info on its website tells me that all of this is currently under consideration....

Apart from questionable weather, would hosting the games at "neutral" metro schools be "easier" from a social distancing/sanitation perspective?  I'm bored and just thinking out loud.  I also have almost zero experience in game administration.  But its an open forum....so🤷‍♂️