US31

4 hours ago, GoodKn19ht said:

Call me uninformed, but what do you mean by rolling 4 year cycle? 

***Anyone who can explain this with better clarity...please chime in.  After reading this it may be clear as mud.***

Instead of SF points only being added together in a block of years (2 year classification cycle), they would accrue over any continuous 4 year period.  I like this because you don't have the arbitrary occurrence of School A winning back to back titles in the "same cycle" and moving up, and school B winning back to back titles in separate cycles and not moving up.  

Also a 4 year period is longer and doesn't allow one class of stud players to effect the classification of an entire program.  More points over a longer time shows that the program is truly "successful" and not just a really good class.

Does it mean schools will be bumped up or down more often? Yes

Does it mean sectionals will need to be adjusted more often? Yes

Is it ok if the answer to those questions is "Yes"? Also, yes.

3 hours ago, foxbat said:

If you are going to make SF a 4-year rolling cycle, then why not let the issue of p/p in 1A, or any other class, be organic?

Fair question...All of this is IMHO, just based on my observations and opinion

If you shrink down 1A to the smallest 32 (which should have been done originally...your size outliers are always at the ends of the bell curve), the population advantages a p/p has over tiny public's is magnified even more.  I feel like this should be acknowledged and addressed by classification to prevent the yo-yo ing of a few p/p's that just take their turns running thru 1A.  There are enough of them in 1A that there would likely always be one that bumps back to 1A.

I know Sheridan is always brought up as a "but, but"...however their last title was in 2007, we are close to measuring that in decades plural.  Since that time 11 of 15 have been won by p/p (4 different ones), and 3 times both teams were p/p.  In larger classes you have a very small number of uber successful teams that dominate the state championship game appearances.  But in 1a (and 2A) its several teams that yo-yo around one another.  I think you could argue all of above is happening in 2A but more so....

I guess I'm not willing to say bump them all up to 3A and higher.  But I do feel if we shrink 1A down from 64 to the smallest 32...it should be made exclusive to publics.  

My 2 cents and maybe worth that much👍

My "evolving" thoughts on classification:

• 1a = smallest 32
• 2a - 5a = classes of 64
• 6a = top 32
• No P/P allowed in 1A
• SF is rolling 4 year cycle. 

On 12/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, Bobref said:

What I am concerned about is your feeling that this is a fairly common occurrence. That has not been my experience. 

There are 2 teams in the HCC that do this A LOT!!

I’m not saying they do it illegally.  But running unbalanced or Y over formations is becoming a common thing for some teams.

43 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

....make 6A the top 32 enrollment schools and 1A the smallest 32 enrollment schools and 5A would look like a much better product top to bottom. 

This....over and over.

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

No doubt the multiplier is a blunt instrument, while a success factor actually addresses the issue in a more focused fashion.

I would argue that at the lowest levels, (1A-3A) all that has happened is different P/P schools take turns having the advantages.  They yo-yo up and down so often there is always a a p/p school there to take up the advantages in population that P/P's afford over smaller public schools.  Not the best example of "addressing" the situation.

IMHO: There should not be a P/P competing in the 1A tournament. 

I would argue that a one class "bump" for P/P's, combined with SF for all (public & P/P) with a longer SF adjustment (every 4 instead of every 2) would be a great system.

Yet another example of why a two year cycle is stupid.  If SF points is going to be the system, it needs to be AT LEAST 3...preferably 4+.  You could reclassify by enrollment every 2 years, and apply SF points every 4 (or even a rolling 4 year cycle).

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

Cue @Lysanderas to why that could never happen.

My retirement career might be the economics officer for sectional assignment committee at IHSAA….

No one on North Meridian can foresee that insanity that a Chatard/Roncalli State Championship would be??? 💵💵💵

They’d fill the whole lower bowl.  Bud Wright wouldn’t have anywhere to sit in the endzone!!!🤣🤣

If you got something like this in 2024...you could break 50k attendance.  I'm taking some liberties with how SF and sectional assignments might go....

• 6A: HCC vs HCC
• 5A: Harrison vs Whiteland
• 4A: Chatard vs Roncalli 
• 3A: WL vs MD
• 2A: Luers vs Lutheran
• A: AC vs ND

Lots of potential "firsts"....schools that are in the metro, near I-65/70/69 etc.....and schools that just travel well.

Northern Indiana bias here....but THE voice of high school football, in my mind, will always be Bob Nagle!

#46GameoftheWeek

#BetweentheBuns

😀

On 11/16/2022 at 1:59 PM, Muda69 said:

So money + convenience trumps safety at our government schools.

Got it.

 

Not sure anywhere in my response I said that.

Simply observing that "grass" surfaces are not automatically "safer" than turf fields.  Which is what is being alluded to in much of these recent media reports about turf safety in the NFL.  

But read it to it what you are looking for....

You stole my snarky ping pong ball comment....well played.

Grass is safer than turf.  Fact check = True.

However....

Most high school athletic programs do not have the ability to properly maintain a grass surface for an entire season.  Most fields have multiple games on them each week as it is (some combination of Var/JV/Frosh/MS/Youth), throw in one Friday night downpour and ensuing mud bath, and that field is trash for the rest of the season.

Also keep in mind how much you would need to limit any access to that field outside of games to keep it in playing shape.

Having played at the Brickie Bowl in the 90's I can tell you that many high school fields will not be anywhere close to the "safer grass surfaces" discussed in much of the media right now.

If anything IHSAA should find ways to support/enforce the safer upkeep of current turf fields.  They need maintenance, and periodic replacement as well.  I've been on some turf fields recently that are not maintained well and by November they feel like the old Hoosier Dome astroturf.

On 10/22/2022 at 1:16 PM, WestfieldRocks said:

They and HSE may be the only two schools that have played in all 6 classes. Westfield played in the 1A tournament prior to the current "all in" format, and were 2A runner up to FW Luers in 1992. I don't believe they ever won a 3A or 4A sectional, but they were not in either one of those classes for very long. 

Westfield won 4A sectional in 07.  Lost to Cathedral in regional.

12 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Up more than 2 scores.  And, IMO the fumble scenario is/was not an option.  The 1st string came back in to take the snap and kneel down.  

And yes the objective was going after the QB (aka: Football).  

As I said before, players/coaches were LEAVING in this scenario.  There was no need for anything other that the game to be conceded to the other school in this situation.

Then no disagreement from me....

However, if the score was 8 or less....and they weren't threatening the QB once he was on a knee....this should be "play football".

5 hours ago, Bobref said:

One that you still see from time to time is the quick shift from punt formation on 4th and 5 or less, attempting to cause the defense to encroach. 

The thing some coaches don’t know is that one of the definitions of a false start is “an act clearly intended to cause B to encroach.” Once had a coach in a semistate game explain this play to me, and after he got done I told him it was a false start. He told me they had done it 4 times that season, every one successful. I congratulated him, but told him it wouldn’t work tonight. You know, he tried it anyway! We called a false start. They won the game, and the next week in the state finals he went through the same thing with their crew. They also told him it was a foul. And again, he did it anyway, and they called him on it. SMH.

A version of this happened in a very high profile metro Indy game just this season (shifted all the OL out on a hard count).  I don't believe the punt team was the team penalized....

33 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

Under center.  Yes there were with the 2nd string QB.  This was the 1st team Offense who was running out the clock (1st down after the turnover on downs 50 seconds left).

A bad snap was their offer when they had the ONE timeout left, and took it.  They fired out on 1st down.  Now there was NO way to stop the clock for the defense, and with 3 guys (QB/RB/FB) basically standing in a triad behind the center....it's almost impossible to recover a fumble under those circumstances.  

And I am completely aware of the manual and what it says.  But trust me the manual has NEVER addressed Coach "Jr. Lombardi" on the sidelines of a MS game as the 'voice of reason' that you need to communicate with and make them understand the ramifications of their actions.  

I would argue this play after the timeout was the “last one” that makes sense.  If O had fumbled this snap and D recovered ball goes over and they have about 30 seconds and no timeouts.  I’m not going to debate the “likely hood” of who might recover a fumbled snap in a “lower level” game.  The fact this is a “lower level” game is why I’m more likely to think a bad snap could take place.
 

now if you tell me O is up two scores…fully on your side.

I also think it would be shady if they were going after the QB.  But “firing off” through the OL when a bad snap could result in them getting the ball back with a chance to win??  That’s AOK with me.
 

Still wondering how you would have  addressed the unlikely fumbled snap had it occurred with the R and U in the way🤷🏼‍♂️

11 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

I had a lower level game earlier this evening.  Turnover on downs (20 yard line in) 50 seconds left...  The defense had one TO left and the offense said "victory formation".  

My wing and I overheard the defensive Coaches say they were going to 'fire out'.  Ok, we then advised the offense to protect themselves as the defense likely is going to 'fire out' then call their last TO.

At this point (following the play and the TO) we again hear the defensive coaches say that they are 'firing out' at the offense.  IMO, this is when enough is enough!  All that I could see and imagine, was hard-feelings/a potential fight/ bad-blood between schools.  

Totally left a bad taste in my mind because of the strategy on behalf of the defensive team/coaches.  

Our remedy to the situation, was to position (U-R) within the expanded neutral zone, and alert the defense that are NOT going to fire-out.  If either of us is moved or touched, guys are getting tossed!  

I realize that this may be beyond our purview, but it is something that has to STOP! 

This is the time and place to TEACH, not become a "Jr. Greg Schiano".  The game is OVER!  Just accept the outcome....  

What would you do?  

I agree in principle 100%....but let me be devil's advocate.

Was this victory a shotgun snap?  Further, had there been any QB center exchange issues earlier in the game for the team that won? (You said this was a lower level game)

If there had, is it "wrong" to try and be in position to recover a bad snap with what I'm assuming would be over 30 seconds on the clock?

How would you have addressed a bad snap, muffed snap on that play you told them not to fire out?

Not trying to stir the pot....

In a similar situation (2 minute, hurry up, end of half, etc), what are the mechanics involved in equipment related issues? 

e.g. Play ends in bounds, defensive player's helmet comes off (which means he has to come out), offense is trying to line up and run a play while he's still picking  up his helmet.  Do officials stop the game clock until he gets off?  Does he have to get off on his own?

I've seen equipment stuff handled different ways in end of half situations, wondering what is "correct"....

Sometimes its that DE that has that one shoe that just comes off at the most opportune times....🤪

Didn't want to derail CA1's thread about illegal punt, but it made me wonder....which penalties are enforced with a LOD?  I'm sure I would guess some correctly, but not others....

On 7/24/2022 at 7:47 PM, crimsonace1 said:

Westfield is not even close to built out and Carmel is growing north. It's likely their growth isn't going to stop. 

 

Keep in mind….Westfield school district is just one township (Washington).  They don’t have as much geography to “build out” like Carmel and HSE schools (whose geographic boundaries are HUGE and already built a second high school).  I believe Hamilton Heights has two townships to draw from in the NE corner of HamCo.  Westfield will never be a Carmel….but maybe a 3-3.5K enrollment.

Heights is getting some “flight” from folks put off of “big school culture” of the rest of the county.  They may be 4A before Westfield even builds a second middle school🤡
 

2 hours ago, DT said:

Tennis, Golf, X country, swimming.  Are any of these really necessary?  All very expensive to participate and train for.

 

What!?!?!?

XC has to have the absolute LOWEST $$ OVERHEAD of any sport!

🤡

21 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

Another interesting school for the near future is Whiteland. Growing incredibly quickly and could possibly get to the size of a Center Grove within 5-6 years (only about a 10 minute drive between Whiteland and CG). You have to think that it would outgrow the Mid-State conference. Not sure how that plays out, but do keep in mind CG will either try to get back in the HCC or create a new conference. From very good sources, I believe a new conference will be formed within 5 years and CG will be at the helm of it. Maybe Whiteland will try and continue that growth and look for something larger.

I have no "inside" source, but I'm told by multiple people they expect this next year to be "quiet" publicly and then in 23-24 an announcement for some significant changes to the Indy Metro conference landscape.  Most of those people have different opinions on what that will be.  

Personally, I would like to see HCC remain relatively unchanged but see Carmel/CG basically rotate around the HCC football world as semi-permanent non-conf games...that's a voting bloc of one, and I don't actually get a vote. 

My gut tells me there will be more domino's to drop and chairs to shuffle.

Does the current NHS gym still have the stage at the end??  I could be dating myself by asking this question....

43 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Sectional 8 - Center Grove. There's literally nothing more to be said, but I will add that the Trojans have won a sectional title 11 straight seasons. They can sleepwalk to 13 straight over these next two seasons.

Out of curiosity....what is the record for consecutive sectional titles? 

I believe Hobart had something like 20 going back to Coach Howell?? Not sure if that was/is the record...

On 5/3/2022 at 10:03 PM, HHF said:

Is there any truth to the theory that teachers accept lower pay in exchange for a shortened work year and long term job security as compared to their corporate business counterparts, who routinely work 60 hour weeks and have little job security , but generally higher pay?  

Also, as I read through many of these comments, it appears to me that just maybe there are too many administrative jobs that are enticing teachers to step out of the classroom and off the athletic fields and into a corner office with a mahogany desk and a big cushioned chair.  Perhaps some of that excess admin overhead can trickle down to the rank and file, making things more amenable for those teachers and coaches on the front lines.

I am not trying to debate any of the points you've made...I think there is some truth to both.  Although in my years of teaching, I feel I've seen as many people leave teaching for "traditional jobs" as I have seen people transition to teaching from those same types of jobs.  Different strokes for different folks.

RE: the admin thing....While you could find examples otherwise, most of the time an "administrator" title is going to come along with a large amount of supervision requirements.  Some of this is during the school day (lunch, bus duty, etc), much of it is outside the school day (sporting events, prom, music/theater performances, dances, etc.  Often, as a HC gains an administrator title, he or she would only have those supervision requirements outside of his or her sport's season. 

Now, do I think there are some admin jobs that don't really need to exist...100% I do (most people in "traditional" jobs would say the same thing).  But I think some people don't realize the amount of "work" the federal, state, and local governments require a school to do that isn't always directly related to teaching kids.  I also don't think people realize the amount of events that go on at a school outside of the school day that require administrative supervision.  

I'm not pointing this out as a good/bad or pro/con of these admin roles.  Just pointing out what most people overlook.