BTF

2 hours ago, Knightmare said:

Incredible what Sheridan has done.  It would be interesting to see what this list would look like without the p/p schools and mega 6A schools....

Using the same points. Use a .85 multiplier for the p/p schools and mega-schools. Do we use a 1.15 multiplier for Snider, Center Grove, and Bloomington South since they've had to play a school double their size to win state? Just a thought. If I get positive feedback on this, I will take the time to run the numbers.

Even more interesting is what this poll would look like if the success factor and 6a was instilled 30 years ago.

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

An interesting question would be a "Mount Rushmore" of Indiana High School Football Programs. That could get dicey!

Having to pick four teams? Lol, you can be in charge of that one. 

1 hour ago, Staxawax said:

Thanks FPO! Very interesting!

In a way it reminds me of the Fort Wayne Pistons of the NBA.

True story. Fort Wayne hosted the 1953 NBA All Star Game. Everyone around the league was so impressed, the Boston Celtics were a little nervous about hosting it the following year. 

2 minutes ago, DT said:

No  I don't want to get banned.  

Lol, I can appreciate that. I'm not denying your claims, just wondering what you've seen. 

2 hours ago, DT said:

Troy Aikman was all over Jalen Smith last night during the Bears - Cowboys game.  He didn't like Smith's pass coverage and mentioned that he said Smith looked slow getting to the ball.

Is Smith still having leg problems?

 

 

Last I checked he was widely considered the 2nd best linebacker in the NFL. He seems to be everywhere when I watch him. Most game commentators have great things to say about him. Didn't see the game last night. 

1 hour ago, DT said:

 Im not a big fan of Smith's on field mannerisms. 

Care to elaborate on that? 

34 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

I posted this in another thread before but here is the list of the top 20 winningest programs in Indiana history. Note this list was made BEFORE the 2018 season. So this list is does not account for wins in the 2018 and 2019 seasons

How far back do these wins go? I think if we are being fair about evaluating a program, going back to 1973 per JH is the way to go. Many high schools probably weren't even around when Cathedral, Reitz, Sheridan, and Culver were accumulating wins. 

Fort Wayne

Snider - Rod Woodson, Vaughn Dunbar, Jessie Bates

Dwenger - Tyler Eifert, Jason Fabini

Luers - Anthony Spencer, Jaylon Smith

Harding - Rod Smith, Trai Essex

Wayne - Jason Baker

South Side - Lamar Smith, Bernard Pollard

Carroll - Drue Tranquill

Elmhurst - James Hardy

Leo - Mike Augustyniac 

3 hours ago, tango said:

As for BTF's list and the Evansville schools...  I'd move Reitz up (2nd. all-time in wins and 2 state titles in in 5 class format, plus lots of AP mythical titles).  

I didn't take number of wins or winning percentage into account. I'm trying to maintain a life outside of this addicting GID, lol. I also only went back to 1973 per John Harrell's website.

I could certainly see giving points for winning percentage. But I think tournament success is a better indicator of a strong program than winning percentage. I don't want to pick  on Homestead, but they went undefeated almost every year when they were in the NHC as a result of weak competition. Their season always came to an end in sectionals when they met up with Snider. Then you have the MIC where they beat up on each other in the regular season, therefore bringing down their winning percentage. Anyway, lots of factors to think about....for sure. 

33 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

I like it.  Maybe you should go all QB rating and add bonuses for performance above enrollment class and multipliers that include Sagarin, Massey and CalPreps ratings.  Of course you'd probably have to quit your job to come up with basically the same results you already have. Lol

Lol, I have a few hours invested in that last one. If anyone wants to add to it, I'd be more than happy to share the numbers with them. 

I used a point system (state 10, semi-state 7, regionals 5, sectionals 3) purely based on championships. The schools I considered were all among the leaders in either sectional, regional, semi-state, or state championships.......using JH's website. 

Top 25

1.     Chatard

2.     Carmel

3.     Luers

4.     Cathedral

5.     Ben Davis

6.     Roncalli

7.     Dwenger

8.     Penn

9.     Sheridan

10.   Warren Central

11.   Hobart

12.   Ritter

13.   Snider

14.   LCC

15.   Jimtown

16.   Center Grove

17.   Mater Dei

18.   Tri-West

19.   Northwood

         Andrean

21.   Evansville Memorial

22.   West Lafayette

23.   Franklin Central

24.   Eastbrook

25.   East Central

         Columbus East

         Adams Central

Best of the Rest

28.   Bloomington South

29.   Scenina

30.   Breman

         New Pal

         Pioneer

33.   Jasper

34.   Lowell

35.   Heritage Hills

36.   Western Boone

37.   Lawrenceburg

38.   Reitz

39.   Linton-Stocton

40.   Griffith

6 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

 

They weren't in 1-25 order... Just as I they came off the top of my head... Hence the NO PARTICULAR ORDER... Just 25 programs... 

Considering you created that list off the top of your head and glancing at past tournament success, the list looks pretty darn good. This is a fun topic, so thank you for the research you did in preparing this thread. I'm in the process of applying a scoring system to the 25 teams you mentioned and a few more. I hope to post my findings on a Top 25 in the next 24 hours.

22 minutes ago, saintsguyseh said:

Dear Lord, have mercy on the SAC if that were ever to happen, the talent at Northrop is there they just can never seem to get it organized enough if they were under Sniders staff it would ruin all of the competition in Fort Wayne😂

Lol, yes. Purely fictitious though. But fun to think about. I think a team like that would have to go independent instead of playing in the SAC.

6 minutes ago, ShakeDownTheThunder said:

Am I the only one that understands what NO PARTICULAR ORDER means?

Lol, apparently. I missed it. I think I was anxious to see the top 25, therefore skipping over the big black bold part.  I mean, it would be kind of hard to argue the order in which he has it. A few tweaks here and there. 

I agree with Carmel being too low, but I'm not going to be to quick to judge. I'm wondering what was used as criteria. 

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

It was tongue in cheek and not meant seriously at all. I have nothing but respect for Snider. Seth Ziegel man...Seth Ziegel.

I believe that. I enjoy reading most of your posts. I misinterpreted your last one. You're probably not Seth's biggest fan, lol. 

4 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

And as US31 stated, it is 2-3 teams as outliers that one can argue statistically that contributes some level to this issue.  It is not even close to 16 teams causing any imbalance.

It's not 2-3 teams. It's 3 teams. Three. But I think any program with over 3000 kids can get over the hump if the right coach comes along and builds the program over time. For schools with less than 3000 in enrollment? It's an uneven playing field. At least there is competitive balance among the 17-32 schools. I don't know why it's so important to you to keep the 17-32 teams in the same tournament as the mega-schools. 

4 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

You do realize that generous donations from citizens and businesses have helped significantly over the years right?  You do realize that large volunteer organizations made up of parents and past alumni and supporters work to raise significant funds for the program?  You realize businesses and volunteers donate time and funds to bantam programs all the way up through high school?  

Are these things not resources that I speak of? You are really making a strong case that socioeconomic factors have significant value. 

On 12/2/2019 at 10:57 AM, dmizers3 said:

This is the most correct answer I've seen.  I'd probably add Snider and/or Dwenger to the list although I don't know enough about Ft. Wayne demographics to be sure.

Snider and Dwenger would be an excellent opportunity for a coach wanting to continue 5 decades of tradition. But Homestead and Carroll have the facilities and growing enrollments. Snider and Dwenger's stronghold on Fort Wayne will come to an end at some point. Carroll's community is exploding on the north side of Fort Wayne. 

I'd like to see Northrop's football program fold. Let those kids join forces with Snider (they share Spuller stadium anyway) to create a mega-school out of The Fort. Just wishful thinking.........won't ever happen. 

I'd like to see Snider play Carmel and Penn every year in the regular season. They've rumbled with those two teams approximately 35 times in the playoffs over the last four decades. 

New teams? Center Grove and Columbus East. Snider's never played anyone south of Indy other than Mooresville one time in the regular season. So playing a solid team like Columbus East would be fun to see. Center Grove because they are both storied programs, very good ones,  who have never played one another. 

5 minutes ago, Grover said:

These guys are too big.

Those guys are too rich.

The other guys have better coaches.

Get rid of all of them and my team will have a chance!

The team I follow does just fine thank you very much. I'm advocating for the masses. 

6 minutes ago, Grover said:

Many had dirt floors and towels hanging where the front door should have been.

Something tells me the other two boxes are checked...................good coaching and enrollment. On another note, do you or anyone else affiliated with Center Grove have the slightest idea what "by and large" means?

34 minutes ago, Grover said:

The goal of these arguments is to get the big bad schools out of their favorite schools tournament.  I'm reminded of an article I read in the (Johnson County) Daily Journal the year before 6A was formed.  CG had just beaten Whiteland and the article lamented the fact that they were in the same division.  At the time Whiteland was around 1800 and CG around 2300.  The article claimed there was no way Whiteland should have to compete against a school that was so much bigger.  There was no mention of the fact that CG would still have to compete against schools with 2000 more students than CG.  That didn't matter.  What mattered to the author was getting CG out of Whiteland's way.  I think that is what is being repeated here.

This thread is supposed to be about competitive balance. You have one team (with plenty of resources I might add) who has shown recent success against schools twice their size. We are reminded of this every time a Center Grove supporter posts something. We get it, the Trojans (from an amazing community) are the greatest thing since sliced bread. You don't have to remind us anymore. By and large, there is a significant problem with 6a in it's current form. 

7 minutes ago, Grover said:

Ben Davis won the 6A title in 2017.  Warren in 2018.  How many of their students get free/reduced lunches?

When you have enrollments THAT big, it doesn't mather what their socioeconomic situation is as long as they have good coaching. 

7 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

CG has made it to the state finals 5 times.  2 of their 3 losses in the finals were by a total of 6 points to Carmel....one being in OT when the Trojans were favored.  How many semi-state has CG played in?  I don't think a program has to always win it all to be considered a success.  

I agree with that. I certainly don't judge Snider by their one and only state championship at the big boy level. Thirteen semi-state appearances and six state finals appearances. Outscoring Carmel in the 13 contests they've played in. Six losses to the Greyhounds by less than 3 points including 2 in overtime and one for the state championship (Stax is going to crucify me for mentioning this again). But yet somehow everyone thinks CG is the only conceivable champion in the mythical 6a D2 division. New Pal and Cathedral will have a say if they are bumped up. 

Anyway, I'm not on this thread do discuss why Snider and Center Grove are successful while others are not. We can go down that road if you want. I'm here to advocate for ALL the other schools and try to come up with an idea that creates competitive balance. If were being honest here, Carmel, BD, and WC could care less about competitive balance as long as they continue filling their trophy cases. But a school like Chesterton is NEVER going to have that opportunity (9 state titles) when schools double their size continue putting good coaches on the field. 

6 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

So now its size, socioeconomic factors, and now coaching/leadership.  The equation is now growing.   As I've tried to say a few times (if reading previous posts wasn't so hard for you) is that there is more than size as a variable in the success equation.  

Coaching has been mentioned on a few different occasions. I've mentioned it at least a couple of times. But I guess I'll repeat myself. Large enrollment + good coaching = dominance. I didn't even say GREAT coaching. Large enrollment + GOOD coaching = dominance. Add socioeconomic factors to that and you have a dynasty. Imagine Coach Ralph at Carmel. The greyhounds would win every year without fail like they do in swimming. 

5 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Here's what we should do. We should divide the number of schools into 16 classes in 6A and award 16 different trophies. BD/Carmel would play a single playoff game. Winner gets a trophy and so on.

Easy for you to poke fun at the idea as a fan of Ben Davis.................the second largest school in the state with 4500 students. What would happen if Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, Zionsville, Avon, Center Grove, and Laffayette Jeff had 4500 students? The Giants stronghold on 6a would come to an end. But those schools don't have those numbers, so I guess Ben Davis can continue to add to their trophy case and thump their chest claiming "were the greatest."

9 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Center Grove is the exception and should be commended for what they have done but their socioeconomic profile (less than 20 percent free and reduced) allows them to compete with the BD’s, WC’s and Carmel’s of the world.

You hit the nail on the head. Center Grove is an outstanding program and might be the best in the state pound for pound. Kudos to them and what they've accomplished. But they do have an advantage that many schools don't. Your socioeconomic argument valid.