Footballking16
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Posts posted by Footballking16
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23 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:
What if both sides are right here?
Coming from a home that is more stable financially allowing the kid to spend more time training/playing sports opposed to having to work a job or even simply just being there to watch little siblings while the parents work…..but also having a great program from top to bottom and having a great coaching staff.
why is this a yes or no thing? It’s not definitive for either but both certainly play a role
anywayyyysssss
super excited about this class. Was just looking and Indiana currently has ten 4 ⭐️ Prospects….oh course as a Gibson Southern fan I’m rooting for a Brady Allen all the way…but I am curious where Joe Strickland lands. He has been a 4 ⭐️ guy since his freshman year and training with Robert Mathis. Tons of offers and could really go anywhere.
also Omar Cooper….I remember someone last year said he was new but a dark horse to rise up the ranks and now he is sitting 4th in the state
I don't think anyone disputes that schools in higher income areas have higher participation rates that in turn leads to success. I don't disagree at all. It's this comment that pisses me off
13 hours ago, temptation said:He honestly still thinks Cathedral’s work ethic, culture and coaching staff is the reason for their success.
It's 90% of their success. Look at a school like Brebuef on the other side of town with with similar enrollment, similar demographics, similar SES, etc. Brebeuf historically is a very average football program. You'd think that a school who shares that same qualities as a school like Cathedral would have similar results. They don't. Not by a mile.
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15 minutes ago, temptation said:
Another cherry picked example on your part. For every Park Tudor, there is a Roncalli, Cathedral and Chatard out there.
Here’s what you still don’t get...
I am not saying that SES is the end all be all in athletics, but it is a MUCH LARGER component than you are giving it credit for.
All of those other things I mentioned (culture, enrollment, coaching, etc) are also factors as it is not black and white.
You just seem to get kind of butt hurt when I insinuate that a large component in Cathedral’s success comes from the fact that they are in an elite category in this regard.
Its gone from cute to a bit sad honestly.
It's insulting to attribute Cathedral's success on the gridiron to the household income of the families that send their kids to Cathedral. It's wrong.
Cathedral isn't good because some of their players parents have money, they're good because they're more talented than the majority of the teams they play stemming from a great coaching staff that instills a winning culture every day.
You can't tell me that the average parent in Center Grove Twp makes more than the average parent in either of the Fishers districts or Noblesville. What separates Center Grove and schools like Noblesville, Fishers, HSE? It sure as hell isn't enrollment. It sure as hell isn't SES factors. I wonder what it is?
There's successful programs littered across the state that come all different dynamics. But there's one or two common themes they all share, and it has nothing to do with SES factors.
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1 hour ago, temptation said:
I own so much space in his head.
Such an easy bear to poke.
He honestly still thinks Cathedral’s work ethic, culture and coaching staff is the reason for their success.
The most affluent school in the state of Indiana also has one of the worst football programs. It’s in jeopardy of contracting. If socioeconomic status dictated high school football results, Park Tudor would have a dozen 1A football titles. They don’t.
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3 hours ago, Bears62 said:
Who the hell thinks Michigan is better than Wisconsin? Wiscy has owned them as of late. Wiscy 5-2 in last 7 meetings. And they consistently have a better record. You’re stupid.
You clearly missed the point. Congratulations.
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34 minutes ago, DT said:
We used to have public school dynasties. I mentioned several. They simply don't exist anymore. How do you explain that?
There aren’t affluent public school communities?
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17 minutes ago, temptation said:
3 public schools there chief. The six state titles in 2020-21 is only part of the story.
The fact that ALL SIX were non-public schools is staggering.
#culture
So Pike and Lawrence Central winning a couple of track state titles ten years ago speaks to the utter downfall of the Indianapolis high schools today? You've lost it.
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18 minutes ago, DT said:
The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.
Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.
Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.
* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again. If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan
* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.
* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.
* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.
* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller
* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.
Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years. Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.
Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.
Not anymore.
Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron. Long championship runs by public schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.
The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football. The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.
Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship pie
Upscale Western Boone--lol.
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1 hour ago, temptation said:
If you’d have told me that would be the case as recently as TEN years ago, I’d have called you crazy.
Well prepared to be dazzled. Exactly 10 years ago, calendar year 2011-2012, Indianapolis schools won, get this, 5 state titles.
Cathedral-Football
Chatard-Football
Lawrence Central-Men's Track and Field
North Central-Women's basketball
Pike-Women's Track and Field
It's a misleading stat, clearly.
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16 minutes ago, temptation said:
I’ll give you CC further proving my point though.
ZERO public schools won state titles in Marion County in 2020-21. Point still stands.
If you’d have told me that would be the case as recently as TEN years ago, I’d have called you crazy.
Aggressive Covid lockdowns also played a role. But I’m sure you’ll come back in here and spout some nonsense about “culture.”
It's a misleading stat, no more no less.
All the Indy schools knock each other out in the sectional and regional rounds, and by default typically play in the hardest half of the bracket by virtue of playing each other. 5 of the top 10 teams in 4A basketball this year all played in the same sectional and are all located in Indianapolis. Indy schools were still represented well in the their respective tournaments.
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43 minutes ago, temptation said:
Take this statistic for example:
Marion County: The LARGEST county in the state of Indiana in terms of population by two-fold won FOUR state championships in the calendar year 20-21...
Cathedral: football and girls track
Roncalli: football and softball
Chatard: football
Warren, Ben Davis, North Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Franklin Central, Pike, Southport, Perry Meridian, Decatur Central...ZERO.
That's a rather misleading statistic. How many public schools in Indianapolis play in anything but the large class division?
I don't see Covenant Christian's football title in there either.
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25 minutes ago, DT said:
Warren and BD are both producing fewer high level players compared to what we had become accustomed to seeing out of those schools. Enrollments have remained steady, so either there are fewer high level players attending these schools, or those that are attending are not developing as thoroughly as their predecessors did.
Carmel has been more consistent than either BD or WC over the past decade in terms of talent development, but still odd that they dont have a player on this list
BD and Warren both have players littered across the D1 ranks. Dawand Jones started in the national championship game last year and David Bell is a potential first round draft pick. Doesn’t get more elite than that.
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19 minutes ago, DT said:
I like that way of thinking. When I made a decision to move to either Avon or Center Grove (White River Township) in 2004, it was CGHS that closed the deal for me. Avon was going through growing pains at that time, and frankly, they probably still are as they approach 3000 student threshold. Just too big.
Carmel, BD and WC and NC are built to handle mega school enrollments. The others not so much
Zionsville loses its small town charm once they start taking on that many students. I've had family in Zionsville since the 50's and they've been very reciprocated to change. They are very big on the small town atmosphere. The town of Zionsville itself isn't very big, especially when compared to Westfield, Carmel, Fishers, Noblesville but has actually almost doubled in population the last 15-20 years yet still dwarfed when comparing populations of Carmel, Fishers, Noblesville. The influx of students coming into the school district are from neighboring Whitestown. Whitestown is the fastest growing community in the state in there really isn't a close second, population has quadrupled in the last 10 or so years.
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15 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:
Do students in Whitestown go to Lebanon or to Zionsville?
Split between the two.
I think you'll see a push from the Zionsville School Corporation in the coming years as Whitestown continues to grow to push all the influx residents to either Lebanon or have Whitestown simply form an independent school corporation. I don't think Zionsville has any interest in taking on another 1000-1500 students.
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14 minutes ago, DT said:
ZV enrollment growth has been much slower than that of AV, FI, HSE , WF and BB in the HCC. It could be a long time, if ever that they reach mega school status (3000 students)
That's by design and Zionsville won't ever get to mega school status. Zionsville is a town of old money and has been resistant to change in terms of population growth in comparison to it's Hamilton and Hendricks County neighbors. Whitestown is a very fast growing community however and wouldn't be shocked to see a new high school emerge in the coming years, possibly consolidated with Lebanon.
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22 minutes ago, temptation said:
Never said they wouldn’t be “fine” just pointing out that if the current trend continues, CG will be tough to catch.
Warren, Carmel and BD aren’t shrinking in size in a major way anytime soon, so yes they will be fine.
Just feels like things have flipped. For the past two decades, those three have been the standard and the occasional talented CG group would sneak up on them. Now, it’s the other way around. BD, Carmel and Warren are chasing CG and it’ll take a special group to unseat them.
Even you can’t deny the role that socioeconomics plays in athletics. Carmel just won the boys basketball state championship as well as track and field and Cathedral just won the girls track and field state title.
You try to pretend it doesn’t matter and that I am diminishing coaching and culture but facts are facts.
Westfield is emerging as an immediate threat and Brownsburg and Avon have shown the last 5-6 years they are no fluke. If anything I think you'll see more parity in 6A in the years to come.
There's multiple role playing aspects that go into athletics with socioeconomics being a small piece. But it's not the end be all, not by a long shot. I've illustrated that in the past. Cathedral winning track and field is really an anomaly but they have an extremely gifted pair of sisters on that squad who come from an extremely athletic family (both brothers are D1 football players who played at CHS previously).
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17 minutes ago, temptation said:
Well it reaches a point of diminishing returns. CG’s 2600 students with a free and reduced lunch rate in the low 20’s is becoming comparable with Carmel’s 5200 with a free and reduced rate around 10 percent because of all of the talent they are amassing (some from out of their district which seems to be no fault of their own).
Warren and Ben Davis (the only two programs with a shot at actually competing with CG, yeah I said it) on the other hand are hanging onto their enrollment as their last remaining competitive advantage.
Take 2000 kids away from BD or 1500 away from Warren and you have Tech.
Take 2000 kids away from Carmel and you still have...Carmel.
Warren just hired away a hall of fame coach from one of the fastest growing school corporations in the state. They will be fine, as will Ben Davis. Center Grove as good as they've been, also has a generational 2022 class, many who started as sophomores. As we've seen the last 20 years, it's been cyclical between the MIC's Big 4 and I don't see that changing any time soon.
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18 minutes ago, temptation said:
Yes, and back on topic the open borders that have now permeated HIGH SCHOOL football will mirror those same gaps.
Could Carmel or Warren catch CG on a bad day? Sure. But it’s looking less and less likely.
Why?
According to you a few months back its all about enrollment and socioeconomic factors. Carmel and Warren are two of the three largest high schools in the state.
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1 hour ago, DT said:
The talent composite really illustrates the talent disparity across college football. The talent disparity between Ohio State and a school like Wisconsin, who by most is considered or perceived to be the 4th best B10 team (behind PSU and Michigan) is significantly greater than the talent disparity between Wisconsin and a school like Indiana or Rutgers, by an extremely wide margin.
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1 minute ago, DT said:
He is seeing national recruiting coverage. Coast to coast (Oregon and FSU) North to south (Michigan and Alabama) The two recruits ahead of him are not getting that kind of attention. The top ranked recruit already signed with Kentucky. The second ranked recruit will likely go to IU.
Come up with a formula that quantifies all that at your leisure.
Those guys (Goodwin and McCullough) were offered by every school in the country. McCullough was previously committed to Ohio State before his dad took a job at Indiana. Blake Fisher was recruited by every school in the country last year. Hunter Johnson was the #1 rated pro-style QB a few years ago. Emil Ekiyor held offers from all over the country and is a starting OL for Bama. Jeff George was the national high school player of the year.
Caden Curry is an exceptional talent but nowhere near the highest recruited player in Indiana history.
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19 minutes ago, DT said:
But he is the highest recruited ever.
In what sense? What quantifies that?
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1 hour ago, DT said:
What rock have you been hiding under? This kid is the highest recruited football player in Indiana high school football history.
Not even the highest ranked player in Indiana this year.
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5 minutes ago, temptation said:
Eh, not really. Opt outs leveled the playing field quite a bit.
I’ll set the over under at 5.5 wins in 2021:
Gimmes: vs Idaho, @ Western Kentucky
Lean Towards a Win: vs Michigan State, @ Maryland, vs Rutgers, vs Minnesota
Lean Towards a Loss: @ Iowa, vs Cincinnati, @ Purdue
Certain Losses: @ Penn State, vs Ohio State, @ Michigan
I’ll do a $500 GID donation on over 5.5 wins if anyone wants to take it?
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4 hours ago, temptation said:
I also maintain that 2020 was an anomaly and looking at the schedule, I fully expect the Hoosiers to regress beck to 5-6 wins.
One season (especially with the circumstances surrounding 2020) doesn’t make or break a program.
It was a cute story Hoosier fans, now back to the reality of finishing in the bottom 3 of the Big Ten East.
Normally I’d agree, except they went 8-4 the year prior. 5-6 wins would be a massive disappointment and failure given IU’s talent level. Every other program IU beat last year played under the same circumstances.
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28 minutes ago, DT said:
Im not convinced IU is over the hump. I would not at all be surprised to see us regress to a 4 to 6 win season again this year.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/?Conference=Big-Ten
Indiana ranks #13 in the Big Ten Overall Talent Composite. I look at that as a black and white number. No gray area. Meaning in my view, they are the 13th best team in the conference. Several national publications expect them to take a step back this season. Im hopeful that we will continue to build on he growth we saw in 2020, but truthfully, that season will always be seen as an anomaly for obvious reasons.
Until IU significantly closes the talent gap between itself and the top half of the conference, we will always be susceptible to a 3-9 disaster, regardless of the stellar job turned in by Coach Allen and his staff.
4 wins would be catastrophic and complete and utter failure if it were to happen. 6 wins should be the bare minimum. Calling IU the 13th best team (in a 14 team conference) is lol your worst take yet. I don’t care what little stars were next to each players name 3-4-5 years ago, it doesn’t matter at this point. IU is a team that has fully bought in to staff and leadership.
Indiana…..A football state for real this time
in The Indiana High School Football Forum
Posted
Open enrollment in the city of Indianapolis has arguably hurt Cathedral. Before open enrollment, you either attended your local school or ponied up and went to a private school.