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Substitution Question

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Breaking the huddle with 12 is a flag as to not confuse the defense and provide an unfair advantage to the offense - I understand that. 

In regards to "no huddle" teams, do they just get a free run of people on and off so-to-speak?? It is my understanding that a player must report inside the hash marks - but we had a situation where no huddle teams have had 3 backs (QB and 2 RB's) trying to figure out who's in the game, while on the outside a couple different receivers doing the same thing. This can cause quite a bit of confusion for a defense when trying to determine offensive formations...

It seems to me the above to scenarios are similar in nature. Why is one a penalty, when the other is not?? 

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There is no foul in HS for breaking the huddle with 12. That's an NCAA (and possibly NFL) rule. The NFHS rule says that a replaced player must leave within 3 seconds of the substitute entering. The player becomes a substitute when he communicates with any player or gets into formation. If the 12th player enters the huddle just before they break and the replaced player leaves as part of that it's not a foul. The same applies to no huddle teams. If they are lingering for more than 3 seconds with 12 players the official could flag illegal substitution. Depending on how the different groups are lingering it may be tricky to get the count, but it should be easier with the offense.

There is a separate requirement for all subs to get inside the 9-yard marks (usually marked by the top of the numbers) before the snap. It's mostly to prevent hide-out plays so most crews don't get that technical if the sub is matched up or obvious to the defense.

Based on your description if there are more than 11 players lingering between the backs and receivers for more than 3 seconds they are gaining an advantage as you describe. It should be flagged. Depending on what else is happening there is no guarantee the officials are counting at that point. There are several other things they have to do between plays. I suggest pointing it out to the official on your sideline so he is at least more alert to it.

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Wait wait wait wait.....breaking the huddle with 12 is no longer a penalty??? Has this been communicated with officiating crews? We were flagged on Friday night for I'm pretty sure this exact thing. 

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7 minutes ago, jets said:

Wait wait wait wait.....breaking the huddle with 12 is no longer a penalty??? Has this been communicated with officiating crews? We were flagged on Friday night for I'm pretty sure this exact thing. 

It never has been under NFHS rules.

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4 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

It never has been under NFHS rules.

Sorry for my ignorance - but is there anything remotely close that I may be misunderstanding as to why we would have been flagged then? 

TEAM A is huddled. It is determined late in the play clock that the right personnel is not the huddle....player A from TEAM A is sent in and the huddle breaks,  player A removes Player B, but ref throws a flag as player B  is running to the sideline. 

Is this just an incorrect enforcement of the officials part?? 

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1 minute ago, jets said:

Sorry for my ignorance - but is there anything remotely close that I may be misunderstanding as to why we would have been flagged then? 

TEAM A is huddled. It is determined late in the play clock that the right personnel is not the huddle....player A from TEAM A is sent in and the huddle breaks,  player A removes Player B, but ref throws a flag as player B  is running to the sideline. 

Is this just an incorrect enforcement of the officials part?? 

I didn't see what happened and don't care to comment on it. As @JustRules said, a replaced player has 3 seconds to begin to leave the field. The foul is illegal substitution. The situation you describe I've seen happen many times, if the replaced player begins to leave in a timely manner (no I don't do a count, I'm not going to split hairs was it 2.8 seconds or was it 3.4), we let it go. 

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The real takeaway from this discussion is IT IS NOT A FOUL UNDER NF RULES TO HAVE 12 IN THE HUDDLE!  It is illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul, if a substitute comes onto the field, and the player he is replacing does not BEGIN to leave the field within 3 seconds after being replaced. If a replaced player is leaving the field and doesn’t make it off before the snap, that is a 5 yd. live ball foul at the snap for illegal substitution.

Edited by Bobref

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On 9/9/2019 at 11:06 AM, Bobref said:

The real takeaway from this discussion is IT IS NOT A FOUL UNDER NF RULES TO HAVE 12 IN THE HUDDLE!  It is illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul, if a substitute comes onto the field, and the player he is replacing does not BEGIN to leave the field within 3 seconds after being replaced. If a replaced player is leaving the field and doesn’t make it off before the snap, that is a 5 yd. live ball foul at the snap for illegal substitution.

Does a player entering the huddle have to play a down?  

For example, the coach A decides to send in the play with his backup QB who tells it to the team.  Then he runs back to the sideline.  Legal?

Or another perhaps less egregious one, team B runs in a FB to replace a WR.  Once he gets to the huddle, B's coach decides to call a play with 4 WRs, and the FB runs back out.

 

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6 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Does a player entering the huddle have to play a down?  

For example, the coach A decides to send in the play with his backup QB who tells it to the team.  Then he runs back to the sideline.  Legal?

Or another perhaps less egregious one, team B runs in a FB to replace a WR.  Once he gets to the huddle, B's coach decides to call a play with 4 WRs, and the FB runs back out.

 

The rule provides as follows:

“During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.”

Violation of the rule is a dead ball 5 yd. penalty for illegal substitution.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bobref said:

The rule provides as follows:

“During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.”

Violation of the rule is a dead ball 5 yd. penalty for illegal substitution.

The definitions of player, substitute and replaced player are all key to this rule. Do you have any example of where this could happen but not be a foul? When does that substitute become a player?

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