Time to fix the broken 6A tournament

[Guest]

Just now, BDGiant93 said:

I won't lie. Several, but could Perry be a competitive team in the Mid-State? Could Tech win the NCC? Sure. If we're setting the level at elite status...well...you're right.

Culture is important but PLAYERS and the right atmosphere/environment matters.

Look at Noblesville.  More specifically, look at Noblesville’s SES profile compared to the teams they face in their conference/county.

Its been a burial ground for great coaches.  Schieb could not win there after a successful run at FC.  Rosen could not win there after a successful run at East Central.  Your boy Jason Simmons seems to be finding his way at BD, but couldn’t win at Noblesville.  They all had (have in Simmons’ case) built a culture and had great leadership elsewhere so why didn’t things work out at Noblesville?

[BDGiant93]

5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Culture is important but PLAYERS and the right atmosphere/environment matters.

Look at Noblesville.  More specifically, look at Noblesville’s SES profile compared to the teams they face in their conference/county.

Its been a burial ground for great coaches.  Schieb could not win there after a successful run at FC.  Rosen could not win there after a successful run at East Central.  Your boy Jason Simmons seems to be finding his way at BD, but couldn’t win at Noblesville.  They all had (have in Simmons’ case) built a culture and had great leadership elsewhere so why didn’t things work out at Noblesville?

I've not talked in depth about it with Coach Simmons. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, BDGiant93 said:

I've not talked in depth about it with Coach Simmons. 

The answer is hidden in my response.  

Jimmy’s and Joe’s with supportive home lives makes all the difference.

Noblesville has neither compared to the teams it is asked to compete with week in and week out.

[BDGiant93]

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

The answer is hidden in my response.  

Jimmy’s and Joe’s with supportive home lives makes all the difference.

Noblesville has neither compared to the teams it is asked to compete with week in and week out.

But here's the other side of that. Prior to 1980, Ben Davis' record was 140-240 with 10 total winning seasons. Since, the Giants are 359-127. Someone changed that culture permanently.

Just now, BDGiant93 said:

But here's the other side of that. Prior to 1980, Ben Davis' record was 140-240 with 10 total winning seasons. Since, the Giants are 359-127. Someone changed that culture permanently.

And I should give Bob Wilbur his props too. From 1973-1983, he went 59-53 and led the Giants to the 1977 Final Four (he beat Dullaghan in the Sectional).

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

But here's the other side of that. Prior to 1980, Ben Davis' record was 140-240 with 10 total winning seasons. Since, the Giants are 359-127. Someone changed that culture permanently.

And I should give Bob Wilbur his props too. From 1973-1983, he went 59-53 and led the Giants to the 1977 Final Four (he beat Dullaghan in the Sectional).

BD was a different place back then my friend...

[BDGiant93]

1 minute ago, Temptation said:

BD was a different place back then my friend...

I grew up in Farley. 

[Guest]

Just now, BDGiant93 said:

I grew up in Farley. 

So you know better then anyone...

[BTF]

5 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Here's what we should do. We should divide the number of schools into 16 classes in 6A and award 16 different trophies. BD/Carmel would play a single playoff game. Winner gets a trophy and so on.

Easy for you to poke fun at the idea as a fan of Ben Davis.................the second largest school in the state with 4500 students. What would happen if Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, Zionsville, Avon, Center Grove, and Laffayette Jeff had 4500 students? The Giants stronghold on 6a would come to an end. But those schools don't have those numbers, so I guess Ben Davis can continue to add to their trophy case and thump their chest claiming "were the greatest."

[BTF]

6 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

So now its size, socioeconomic factors, and now coaching/leadership.  The equation is now growing.   As I've tried to say a few times (if reading previous posts wasn't so hard for you) is that there is more than size as a variable in the success equation.  

Coaching has been mentioned on a few different occasions. I've mentioned it at least a couple of times. But I guess I'll repeat myself. Large enrollment + good coaching = dominance. I didn't even say GREAT coaching. Large enrollment + GOOD coaching = dominance. Add socioeconomic factors to that and you have a dynasty. Imagine Coach Ralph at Carmel. The greyhounds would win every year without fail like they do in swimming. 

[Grover]

On 12/2/2019 at 8:36 AM, Temptation said:

Pike HAD the right guy, qualified for the state finals in this decade but two-thirds if their student population are on free/reduced lunch.  (THIS matters.)

Ben Davis won the 6A title in 2017.  Warren in 2018.  How many of their students get free/reduced lunches?

[BTF]

7 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

CG has made it to the state finals 5 times.  2 of their 3 losses in the finals were by a total of 6 points to Carmel....one being in OT when the Trojans were favored.  How many semi-state has CG played in?  I don't think a program has to always win it all to be considered a success.  

I agree with that. I certainly don't judge Snider by their one and only state championship at the big boy level. Thirteen semi-state appearances and six state finals appearances. Outscoring Carmel in the 13 contests they've played in. Six losses to the Greyhounds by less than 3 points including 2 in overtime and one for the state championship (Stax is going to crucify me for mentioning this again). But yet somehow everyone thinks CG is the only conceivable champion in the mythical 6a D2 division. New Pal and Cathedral will have a say if they are bumped up. 

Anyway, I'm not on this thread do discuss why Snider and Center Grove are successful while others are not. We can go down that road if you want. I'm here to advocate for ALL the other schools and try to come up with an idea that creates competitive balance. If were being honest here, Carmel, BD, and WC could care less about competitive balance as long as they continue filling their trophy cases. But a school like Chesterton is NEVER going to have that opportunity (9 state titles) when schools double their size continue putting good coaches on the field. 

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, Grover said:

Ben Davis won the 6A title in 2017.  Warren in 2018.  How many of their students get free/reduced lunches?

When you have enrollments THAT big, it doesn't mather what their socioeconomic situation is as long as they have good coaching. 

[Grover]

8 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

Yea...because I haven't lived in a 6A world....didn't live in a 5A world when the school size differential was even greater prior to 2013.  I am defend myself pretty well when it comes to the Coach Moore tenure at CG.

Again, not arguing size has no impact.....just don't align it is the only variable in the success equation.  

To each his own on this debate.

 

The goal of these arguments is to get the big bad schools out of their favorite schools tournament.  I'm reminded of an article I read in the (Johnson County) Daily Journal the year before 6A was formed.  CG had just beaten Whiteland and the article lamented the fact that they were in the same division.  At the time Whiteland was around 1800 and CG around 2300.  The article claimed there was no way Whiteland should have to compete against a school that was so much bigger.  There was no mention of the fact that CG would still have to compete against schools with 2000 more students than CG.  That didn't matter.  What mattered to the author was getting CG out of Whiteland's way.  I think that is what is being repeated here.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Grover said:

The goal of these arguments is to get the big bad schools out of their favorite schools tournament.  I'm reminded of an article I read in the (Johnson County) Daily Journal the year before 6A was formed.  CG had just beaten Whiteland and the article lamented the fact that they were in the same division.  At the time Whiteland was around 1800 and CG around 2300.  The article claimed there was no way Whiteland should have to compete against a school that was so much bigger.  There was no mention of the fact that CG would still have to compete against schools with 2000 more students than CG.  That didn't matter.  What mattered to the author was getting CG out of Whiteland's way.  I think that is what is being repeated here.

Can’t speak for others on here but I don’t have a “favorite school.”

[Grover]

4 hours ago, Temptation said:

No doubt and while I agree, you can only do so much with the hand you are dealt.

I’ll go ahead and ask it as I do not fear offending folks. Drop Kyle Ralph or Eric Moore in at Perry Meridian or Arsenal Tech tomorrow; how’s that working out?

Are you not familiar with the socioeconomics of the teams Coach Moore had in Florida?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Grover said:

Are you not familiar with the socioeconomics of the teams Coach Moore had in Florida?

Nope.  Help me out.

[Grover]

"When you have enrollments THAT big, it doesn't mather what their socioeconomic situation is as long as they have good coaching."

These guys are too big.

Those guys are too rich.

The other guys have better coaches.

Get rid of all of them and my team will have a chance!

27 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Nope.  Help me out.

Many had dirt floors and towels hanging where the front door should have been.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Grover

[BTF]

34 minutes ago, Grover said:

The goal of these arguments is to get the big bad schools out of their favorite schools tournament.  I'm reminded of an article I read in the (Johnson County) Daily Journal the year before 6A was formed.  CG had just beaten Whiteland and the article lamented the fact that they were in the same division.  At the time Whiteland was around 1800 and CG around 2300.  The article claimed there was no way Whiteland should have to compete against a school that was so much bigger.  There was no mention of the fact that CG would still have to compete against schools with 2000 more students than CG.  That didn't matter.  What mattered to the author was getting CG out of Whiteland's way.  I think that is what is being repeated here.

This thread is supposed to be about competitive balance. You have one team (with plenty of resources I might add) who has shown recent success against schools twice their size. We are reminded of this every time a Center Grove supporter posts something. We get it, the Trojans (from an amazing community) are the greatest thing since sliced bread. You don't have to remind us anymore. By and large, there is a significant problem with 6a in it's current form. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Grover said:

These guys are too big.

Those guys are too rich.

The other guys have better coaches.

Get rid of all of them and my team will have a chance!

Many had dirt floors and towels hanging where the front door should have been.

Once again, I don’t have “a team”.

You’ve officially become a joke.  Congrats.

Losing sure does bring out interesting behaviors in some folks.  Hope you get that 76th kids’ red medal ordered...

[BTF]

5 minutes ago, Grover said:

These guys are too big.

Those guys are too rich.

The other guys have better coaches.

Get rid of all of them and my team will have a chance!

The team I follow does just fine thank you very much. I'm advocating for the masses. 

6 minutes ago, Grover said:

Many had dirt floors and towels hanging where the front door should have been.

Something tells me the other two boxes are checked...................good coaching and enrollment. On another note, do you or anyone else affiliated with Center Grove have the slightest idea what "by and large" means?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Once again, someone has a different view and this is how you respond.  You just can't help yourself, can you?

You know a discussion is over when a given side feels they have to respond with insults.

You insulted the topic with your "dirt floors and towels" comment and then want to play the victim.  Bring some real substance to the conversation.  You are so fragile and quick to cry foul when you feel you or your program is being disrespected.

I asked for stats on Moore's squads in Florida and you provided NOTHING.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

you are out of your mind...I said nothing of the sort....Nothing of the sort.  Perhaps it is you that need to go back and read the posts in this thread.

BTW, what Grover stated about Coach Moore's past in Florida was true....and he stated only because your claim of socioeconomics being the most important factor.

Sorry, guess I got my posters mixed up.  I'll take the loss.

My point still stands that you get defensive when you make your mind up that folks are discrediting Moore.  Both factors (socioeconomics/numbers) and culture CAN be true and I have been steadfast in crediting both...you just choose to focus on one.

I do not know the specifics of what things were like at CG prior to Moore's arrival but I can tell you that the socioeconomics probably were not much different than they are now, but the numbers/enrollment were.

[BTF]

4 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

And as US31 stated, it is 2-3 teams as outliers that one can argue statistically that contributes some level to this issue.  It is not even close to 16 teams causing any imbalance.

It's not 2-3 teams. It's 3 teams. Three. But I think any program with over 3000 kids can get over the hump if the right coach comes along and builds the program over time. For schools with less than 3000 in enrollment? It's an uneven playing field. At least there is competitive balance among the 17-32 schools. I don't know why it's so important to you to keep the 17-32 teams in the same tournament as the mega-schools. 

4 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

You do realize that generous donations from citizens and businesses have helped significantly over the years right?  You do realize that large volunteer organizations made up of parents and past alumni and supporters work to raise significant funds for the program?  You realize businesses and volunteers donate time and funds to bantam programs all the way up through high school?  

Are these things not resources that I speak of? You are really making a strong case that socioeconomic factors have significant value. 

[BDGiant93]

19 hours ago, BTF said:

Easy for you to poke fun at the idea as a fan of Ben Davis.................the second largest school in the state with 4500 students. What would happen if Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, Zionsville, Avon, Center Grove, and Laffayette Jeff had 4500 students? The Giants stronghold on 6a would come to an end. But those schools don't have those numbers, so I guess Ben Davis can continue to add to their trophy case and thump their chest claiming "were the greatest."

It was tongue in cheek and not meant seriously at all. I have nothing but respect for Snider. Seth Ziegel man...Seth Ziegel.

Edited December 4, 2019 by BDGiant93

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

It was tongue in cheek and not meant seriously at all. I have nothing but respect for Snider. Seth Ziegel man...Seth Ziegel.

I believe that. I enjoy reading most of your posts. I misinterpreted your last one. You're probably not Seth's biggest fan, lol.