Time to fix the broken 6A tournament

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

If Zionsville (2055) has to go through Carmel (5286) for a state title, then what is the point of having a class system at all?

Doesn't Center Grove do it all the time? 

Don't you think enrollment becomes redundant once it gets to a certain threshold? You can only put 11 men on the field at a time. If you really want to be outraged, the disproportion of enrollments in 1A relative to football is much, much larger than that of 6A. A 1A school with 350 kids is at HUGE advantage over a school with say 150 kids in comparison to a school with 5286 kids playing against a school with 2055 kids. The enrollment gap between the largest 6A school and smallest 6A school is about the same as 1A (2.5x) yet schools in 1A are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to football, numbers speaking. Where's the feaux outrage to split 1A into two divisions? 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Doesn't Center Grove do it all the time? 

Don't you think enrollment becomes redundant once it gets to a certain threshold? You can only put 11 men on the field at a time. If you really want to be outraged, the disproportion of enrollments in 1A relative to football is much, much larger than that of 6A. A 1A school with 350 kids is at HUGE advantage over a school with say 150 kids in comparison to a school with 5286 kids playing against a school with 2055 kids. The enrollment gap between the largest 6A school and smallest 6A school is about the same as the 1A (2.5x) yet schools in 1A are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to football, numbers speaking. Where's the feaux outrage to split 1A into two divisions? 

BD, WC and Carmel have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that enrollment is certainly not redundant relative to football rosters

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Doesn't Center Grove do it all the time? 

Don't you think enrollment becomes redundant once it gets to a certain threshold? You can only put 11 men on the field at a time. If you really want to be outraged, the disproportion of enrollments in 1A relative to football is much, much larger than that of 6A. A 1A school with 350 kids is at HUGE advantage over a school with say 150 kids in comparison to a school with 5286 kids playing against a school with 2055 kids. The enrollment gap between the largest 6A school and smallest 6A school is about the same as the 1A (2.5x) yet schools in 1A are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to football, numbers speaking. Where's the feaux outrage to split 1A into two divisions? 

Speaking without any specific facts but I would assume that places the size of Zionsville still have a handful of two way players whereas your mega schools do not.  That’s pretty significant in my opinion.

At the 1A level you mentioned, what percentage of guys would you say play both ways on average?

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

BD, WC and Carmel have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that enrollment is certainly not redundant relative to football rosters

And a school like Center Grove has proven enrollment isn't what necessarily makes a program great. How has high enrollment numbers worked out for schools like North Central, Lake Central, and Pike? 

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

And a school like Center Grove has proven enrollment isn't what necessarily makes a program great. How has high enrollment numbers worked out for schools like North Central, Lake Central, and Pike? 

Every class has a few programs that play above their pay grade due to disproportionate investment and student involvement in the football program

Pps are a given

A few public's who fit this profile :

Gibson Southern

heritage Hills

Columbus East

Center Grove

New Prairie

Northwood

Pioneer

West Lafayette

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

And a school like Center Grove has proven enrollment isn't what necessarily makes a program great. How has high enrollment numbers worked out for schools like North Central, Lake Central, and Pike? 

North Central finally has the right guy and Doug Mitchell (basketball coach) retired.

Pike HAD the right guy, qualified for the state finals in this decade but two-thirds if their student population are on free/reduced lunch.  (THIS matters.)

Lake Central is a true head scratcher.for me.

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Speaking without any specific facts but I would assume that places the size of Zionsville still have a handful of two way players whereas your mega schools do not.  That’s pretty significant in my opinion.

Couldn't tell you. I know it didn't have any impact on Zionsville winning a sectional this year though.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Couldn't tell you. I know it didn't have any impact on Zionsville winning a sectional this year though.

700/800 difference in enrollment vs Brownsburg (negligible)...2400/2500 a week later vs BD.

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Pike HAD the right guy, qualified for the state finals in this decade but two-thirds if their student population are on free/reduced lunch.  (THIS matters.)

So now you're steering from an enrollment issue to a socio-economic issue. I would agree with you on the latter that socio-economic factors plays a much larger roll than enrollment. I've given you examples of teams that are able to play above their weight and if you look what all these programs have in common it's that they have heavily invested in their football program, have strong community support, good feeder programs, etc.

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

700/800 difference in enrollment vs Brownsburg (negligible)...2400/2500 a week later vs BD.

Pike 1300+ the week before?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So now you're steering from an enrollment issue to a socio-economic issue. I would agree with you on the latter that socio-economic factors plays a much larger roll than enrollment. I've given you examples of teams that are able to play above their weight and if you look what all these programs have in common it's that they have heavily invested in their football program, have strong community support, good feeder programs, etc.

Pike 1300+ the week before?

Because BOTH play a significant factor.  

I stated this before.  Enrollment is only part of the equation and is lazy analysis.  BD and Warren are over 70 percent free and reduced but counterbalance that with numbers.  Pike is a “tweener” as they don’t quite have the numbers of BD/WC but have slightly lower poverty numbers.

Something that cannot be measured is CULTURE.  Credit to those who have created that variable which can also offset the statistics.

Resources and dedication (which DT talks about frequently) to the sport also varies by school.  I won’t speak confidently or out of turn here but how many “mega school” coaches actually TEACH?!  That’s also a pretty big deal and could also be used as a variable in the thread that I created regarding the “best coaching jobs on the state.”

Edited December 2, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

 Enrollment is only part of the equation and is lazy analysis.

Agree and why I think it's silly to start a thread saying "the 6A tournament is broken" due to enrollment exclusively. It's dubiously funny that the thread has turned into a "MIC conference championship game" considering said poster who started the thread has made multiple attempts at discrediting the MIC. 

[foxbat]

7 hours ago, DT said:

As discussed previously, Oklahoma crowns 9 state champs in a state with half the population of Indiana.

If you are going to commit to a class structure, you should commit to making it as fair and balanced as you possibly can.

I believe that the addition of a 2 divisional 6A structure would breath some fresh life into the tournament, increase attendance, and encourage additional investment in football at the small 6A level.  I see no downside to this proposal, other than a hectic 4 game Friday schedule.  

 

I would stop holding Oklahoma up based on previous arguments.

First, two of Oklahoma's classes are less than 11-man ball which Indiana does not have and likely will go kicking and screaming before it looks at that.  Secondly, and most importantly, the biggest thing that jumps out is that Oklahoma's class structure has very little to do with competitive balance based on how that term has been tossed around on GID and with the numbers thrown around.  OK's 6A Division I group, the largest, has a range from 5,037 ADM to 1,798 ADM.  That's about the same as Indiana's entire 6A class excluding Success Factor folks.  Their Division II 6A looks much more like Indiana's 5A in terms of size and spread.  

 

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I would stop holding Oklahoma up based on previous arguments.

First, two of Oklahoma's classes are less than 11-man ball which Indiana does not have and likely will go kicking and screaming before it looks at that.  Secondly, and most importantly, the biggest thing that jumps out is that Oklahoma's class structure has very little to do with competitive balance based on how that term has been tossed around on GID and with the numbers thrown around.  OK's 6A Division I group, the largest, has a range from 5,037 ADM to 1,798 ADM.  That's about the same as Indiana's entire 6A class excluding Success Factor folks.  Their Division II 6A looks much more like Indiana's 5A in terms of size and spread.  

 

The Oklahoma model actually works better for Indiana than it does for Oklahoma.

We are heading towards a time where there will be nearly 16 schools with 3000 plus attendance. 

Carmel is the outlier, and we cant make decisions based solely on carmels ridiculous enrollment numbers.

But a 6A D1 range of 3000 to 4600 and a 6A D2 range of 2000 to 2900 looks pretty good on paper.  I believe that is where we are heading.  

 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I would stop holding Oklahoma up based on previous arguments.

First, two of Oklahoma's classes are less than 11-man ball which Indiana does not have and likely will go kicking and screaming before it looks at that.  Secondly, and most importantly, the biggest thing that jumps out is that Oklahoma's class structure has very little to do with competitive balance based on how that term has been tossed around on GID and with the numbers thrown around.  OK's 6A Division I group, the largest, has a range from 5,037 ADM to 1,798 ADM.  That's about the same as Indiana's entire 6A class excluding Success Factor folks.  Their Division II 6A looks much more like Indiana's 5A in terms of size and spread.  

 

DT's proposal does nothing but muddy the waters and adds an unnecessary class to crown a champion in another watered down tournament.

[foxbat]

Just now, DT said:

The Oklahoma model actually works better for Indiana than it does for Oklahoma.

We are heading towards a time where there will be nearly 16 schools with 3000 plus attendance. 

Carmel is the outlier, and we cant make decisions based solely on carmels ridiculous enrollment numbers.

But a 6A D1 range of 3000 to 4600 and a 6A D2 range of 2000 to 2900 looks pretty good on paper.  I believe that is where we are heading.  

 

Be careful what you wish for with regard to competitive balance.  Oklahoma's Division II  6A has seen Bixby in the championship for the last six years including this year, won it four times ... and might make it five this year.

[Irishman]

You have to think logistics when talking about any tweaks. Scheduling an additional game is a problem. 3 games on Friday and 3 on Saturday are the limited. Having a championship game at 10 am would not work. I do think some things could be done differently though. With a cap of 32 teams, seed the tournament, or at least seed through the semi state round. 
It will be interesting to see what happens next year as Carmel moves to the Southern half. 

[Guest]

Just now, Irishman said:

You have to think logistics when talking about any tweaks. Scheduling an additional game is a problem. 3 games on Friday and 3 on Saturday are the limited. Having a championship game at 10 am would not work. I do think some things could be done differently though. With a cap of 32 teams, seed the tournament, or at least seed through the semi state round. 
It will be interesting to see what happens next year as Carmel moves to the Southern half. 

Maybe two northern 6A powers agree to skip the semi state and join forces to take on the southern winner?

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, Irishman said:

You have to think logistics when talking about any tweaks. Scheduling an additional game is a problem. 3 games on Friday and 3 on Saturday are the limited. Having a championship game at 10 am would not work. I do think some things could be done differently though. With a cap of 32 teams, seed the tournament, or at least seed through the semi state round. 
It will be interesting to see what happens next year as Carmel moves to the Southern half. 

Its a mistake to move Carmel to the south.  Im surprised this is happening.

[Footballking16]

11 minutes ago, DT said:

Its a mistake to move Carmel to the south.  Im surprised this is happening.

Why is it a mistake lol? If Carmel isn't one of the 16 northern-most teams, they belong in the south bracket. No?

Carmel moving south completely negates your idea that 6A needs to be split because now you'll see more northern representation in the finals; they'll just be more lopsided affairs.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Why is it a mistake lol? If Carmel isn't one of the 16 northern-most teams, they belong in the south bracket. No?

Carmel moving south completely negates your idea that 6A needs to be split because now you'll see more northern representation in the finals; they'll just be more lopsided affairs.

The selection committee takes competitive balance into consideration when making sectional assignments.

Carmel has been established as a northern bracket school and should have been kept there to maintain some balance amongst the big 3.  

 

 

[Knightmare]

I think the two division system would speed up the competitive balance in 6A as a whole.  How many more kids would want to play football at Zionsville if they won the 6A D2 title?  Tradition matters because tradition creates a winning CULTURE.  New Pal kids grow up wanting to be Dragons because they have a TRADITION of winning and that CULTURE is contagious at the lower levels.  Just check out Coach Ralph's twitter with the kids who were standing outside the weight room ready to get started.

 

I know I am talking about New Pal, but couldn't Zionsville or other D2 schools replicate that success to then be able to compete with the Mega Schools?

[Lysander]

2 hours ago, BTF said:

You honestly believe that? You don't think that Homestead would "contend" for the 3a title most years? 

I don’t think they (or any of the other schools referred to) win it the last 3 years per analytics (which is all we are going to have to evaluate that....outside of simple opinion)

I think DT is suggesting that we give out 7, not 32. See my previous post regarding Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central's combined 27 state titles. Three schools who just happen to be 3 of the largest 4 in the state and double the size of most of their 6a counterparts. If Zionsville (2055) has to go through Carmel (5286) for a state title, then what is the point of having a class system at all? Has Chatard ever defeated a team twice their enrollment on their way to a state title? If not, then why are we asking Chesterton, Zionsville, and Jeffersonville to?

Excluding the 3 regular season conference games (I believe the conference schools are all larger than Chatard, btw),  Chatard’s 6 other games were against larger schools.  4 of those 6 were schools that were minimally twice the size of Chatard.  That said, the “Standard” should be  Center Grove.  They are a public school that competes across the board athletically and they aren’t a “mega-school”.  Carmel is always going to be an outlier due to their obscene size.  This whole debate is fundamentally about getting trophies for very large schools “not named” Carmel, Warren Central or Ben Davis.  Then make the cutoff for 6A 3,000 kids and divide the remaining schools into 5 classes.  I GUARANTEE that there will be a whole new round of teeth-gnashing even if you do that.  The “Problem” is all about 3 schools (along with Center Grove’s outsized level of performance). 

 

[Footballking16]

11 minutes ago, DT said:

Carmel has been established as a northern bracket school and should have been kept there to maintain some balance amongst the big 3.  

You really can't help yourself can you?

Carmel moving South 100% promotes competitive balance among 6A and you don't have to drum up an additional class to water down a 7th tournament in the process. Gone are the days of an all-MIC 6A final and you'll now see newer representation in 6A. Isn't that what you want?

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

You really can't help yourself can you?

Carmel moving South 100% promotes competitive balance among 6A and you don't have to drum up an additional class to water down a 7th tournament in the process. Gone are the days of an all-MIC 6A final and you now you'll see newer representation in 6A. Isn't that what you want?

No.  I dont want to see blowouts in the 6A title game.  

Carmel would have blown out Merrillville in this years 6A title game had we been using the 2020 sectional alignment.  5400 kids vs 2100 kids.  That doesnt solve the problem.  If the IHSAA was looking for a fix to an all MIC final, this is not the answer.

[BDGiant93]

My plan would be to look at the eight Sectionals and see if there isn't a better way to geographically make them work. Maybe East/West for semi-states rather than north/south. Sectionals 1, 3, 5, 6 West and 2, 4, 7, and 8 East?

Also seeding the Sectional to get the Avon/Brownsburg/Carmel alignment out of the same Sectional, for example.

Edited December 2, 2019 by BDGiant93