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Time to fix the broken 6A tournament


Guest DT

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15 minutes ago, DT said:

That's interesting.

I've never considered Carmel to be a "tough" program.  Thats doesnt mean they are/were soft.  They always have good size and plenty of college bound talent.  

This team looks different.  This team looks like a bigger and deeper version of Chatard, with the same type of killer attitude.  I was impressed.  

You had to love it when big #75 ran the CG linebacker out of the back of the endzone, like Michael Oher did in "Blindside"   That set the tone for a very physical game.  And then Curry returned the favor for CG when he body slammed the Carmel RB into the turf inside the Trojan 5 yard line.

CG is very young and that was a veteran Carmel team.  Bodes very well for the Trojans in the future.  With jackson at QB , CG could rip off two straight 6A titles 

Great game, best game of the weekend.  

 

Could very well be what I refer to as “choreographed/fake” bulletin board material.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Wasn’t Center Grove just in the state finals? A bottom half 6A enrollment school?

Center Grove is just on the edge, but growing enrollment.  

CG is an anomaly.  As is New Pal in 4A and WL in 3A

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Just now, DT said:

Center Grove is just on the edge, but growing enrollment.  

CG is an anomaly.  As is New Pal in 4A and WL in 3A

Three of the lowest PUBLIC free and reduced lunch rates in the state...

Not a coincidence.

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1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Could very well be what I refer to as “choreographed/fake” bulletin board material.

Carmel's elitist perception can also be taken as soft by many outside the program.  Its a natural connection to make.  Similar to Lake Central in The Region.  

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1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Three of the lowest PUBLIC free and reduced lunch rates in the state...

Not a coincidence.

Strong socio economic profile equates to success on the athletic field.

Just now, gonzoron said:

As evidenced by your view of Carmel's previous teams.

Did I say carmel was soft?

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2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Valparaiso?

Valpo is 6A by enrollment but was in 5A due to Columbus East and the success factor. My guess is that Valpo as the smallest enrollment school in 6A likely makes it to semi-state and gives Carmel a better game than Homestead.

Zionsville was the smallest true 6A school in the tournament this year, upset the #1 team in the state, and won a sectional.

Per usual, I think DT talks just to talk.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Valpo is 6A by enrollment but was in 5A due to Columbus East and the success factor. My guess is that Valpo as the smallest enrollment school in 6A likely makes it to semi-state and gives Carmel a better game than Homestead.

Zionsville was the smallest true 6A school in the tournament this year, upset the #1 team in the state, and won a sectional.

Per usual, I think DT talks just to talk.

Agree on Valpo.

Zionsville = the LOWEST free and reduced PUBLIC school in Indiana...

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36 minutes ago, DT said:

That was the most physical and aggressive Carmel team I have ever seen.  

 

23 minutes ago, DT said:

I've never considered Carmel to be a "tough" program. 

 

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Did I say carmel was soft?

You've shown by these first 2 statements that you don't have a clue about Carmel's football program. 

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14 minutes ago, DT said:

Strong socio economic profile equates to success on the athletic field.

Did I say carmel was soft?

First - Can’t be fixed unless you continue to keep carving it down until every big school is a winner...............errr....yeah rah! 
 

Despite the fun that many of us might have (me included) as regards declarations of Carmel “softness”, the reality is that outside of certain “trades” (I used the blue collar “word” just to piss off uppity Carmel folks), a ton of folks who have migrated to Carmel came from hard-scrabble, tough minded-beginnings.  Their parents were often the successful first generation college competitors who came from small towns and ended up in Carmel.

Their kids will be tough and competitive as well.

Though I love the “soft” stereotype.....I’ll push it to HSE and Zionsville. Among the uppity ritzy schools one lives to hate.

 

Edited by Lysander
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5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Agree on Valpo.

Zionsville = the LOWEST free and reduced PUBLIC school in Indiana...

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

Nobody gets all the cards.

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

The split division proposal is not designed to limit championship opportunities for The MIC, it is designed to elevate championship opps for low enrollment 6A schools.  

The 6A championship game has been a very exclusive club since its inception.  The IHSAA knows this and should act to correct this format error.

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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

1.  It’s related.  CG is one of the few 17-32 sized schools with an annual shot due, in part, to the type of family that lives in the district.

2.  The HCC is continuing to close the gap.  Not sure what hype you are referring to but the facts are the facts.  The HCC is the conference of the future and its a matter of “when” and not “if” it surpasses the MIC.  You can’t ignore the facts and far too many folks are choosing to use Brownsburg’s choke job as an example.

3.  The MIC “may” be as strong as it’s ever been (yet another topic that is related but could also be a completely different thread) but the HCC is also as good as it’s ever been, it’s just not “there” quite yet.

Edited by Guest
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5 minutes ago, DT said:

The split division proposal is not designed to limit championship opportunities for The MIC, it is designed to elevate championship opps for low enrollment 6A schools.  

The 6A championship game has been a very exclusive club since its inception.  The IHSAA knows this and should act to correct this format error.

Does that really change under your new proposal? You’re not limiting opportunities for the MIC, you’re extending them. You talk about MIC dominance now, wait till they’re represented in two different divisions.

You’re still going to get a 6A D1 finals pairing with Carmel playing Warren/BD and then you’re going to get a D2 finals with Center Grove and whatever team from the North that ends up getting blown out.

How does that solve anything!

Edited by Footballking16
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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Does that really change under your new proposal?

You’re still going to get a 6A D1 finals pairing with Carmel playing Warren/BD and then you’re going to get a D2 finals with Center Grove and whatever team from the North that ends up getting blown out.

How does that solve anything!

Based on current and future enrollment trends, CG looks like a D1 school over the long term.

Keep in mind, CG entered the tournament this year with a 4-5 record.  They are more susceptible to downturns than are the megaschools, due to sheer numbers availability.

The lure of a 6A D2 state title will continue to incent programs like Snider, Warsaw, Homestead, Merrillville, Jefferson, etc to invest in program improvement.  

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19 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

Well....there is that as well.  
 

That said, I am “privileged” per DT’s declaration on the vacated Roncalli page and any thought I might ever have is clearly suspect.

Guess that wooden, outdoor, dugout “sh!tter” in elementary school in Metamora, Indiana I had to use somehow disqualifies me as privileged simply because I could later send my kids to a private school I could afford to pay for.....and have indoor plumbing.

Go figure...

Edited by Lysander
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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This thread was started about lack of representation of low enrollment 6A schools, not free and reduced lunch.

In reality, this thread was started to deter from the fact that DT for two years has been so off base about the HCC overtaking the MIC. DT doesn’t care that the lower enrollment 6A schools aren’t represented at LOS, he cares that the HCC hasn’t lived up to the hype and the MIC is as strong as ever. Under DT’s 6A split-division proposal, the MIC would have produced TWO state champions this year. Talk about your all-time backfires.

 

I doubt there is anyone on this forum who would not agree that the HCC has closed the gap on The MIC.  I agree the HCC took a reputation hit this year with its poor post season performance.  I never bought into the idea that Avon and Brownsburg were the two best teams in the state.  

 

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17 minutes ago, DT said:

Based on current and future enrollment trends, CG looks like a D1 school over the long term.

Keep in mind, CG entered the tournament this year with a 4-5 record.  They are more susceptible to downturns than are the megaschools, due to sheer numbers availability.

The lure of a 6A D2 state title will continue to incent programs like Snider, Warsaw, Homestead, Merrillville, Jefferson, etc to invest in program improvement.  

I think long term they would be on the cusp every enrollment cycle. Westfield currently has the 22nd largest enrollment and is growing rapidly and will soon pass Center Grove.

Center Grove also entered the tournament without one of the best RB’s in the state playing a single down the entire regular season. Something to think about.

Schools like LC and LN are forgotten being bottom feeders in a very strong MIC. Do we not believe they wouldn’t rise to the top if either team avoided a Warren/BD/CG sectional/regional/SS path? 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I think long term they would be on the cusp every enrollment cycle. Westfield currently has the 22nd largest enrollment and is growing rapidly and will soon pass Center Grove.

Center Grove also entered the tournament without one of the best RB’s in the state playing a single down the entire regular season. Something to think about.

Schools like LC and LN are forgotten being bottom feeders in a very strong MIC. Do we not believe they wouldn’t rise to the top if either team avoided a Warren/BD/CG sectional/regional/SS path? 

I would expect them to be at the same competitive level as schools of similar size.  

Im not sure that I subscribe to the theory that the Lawrence schools benefit by playing stronger regular season competition.  An equal argument can be made that they are beaten down due to a lack of depth when competing against the megas.  

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

Im not sure that I subscribe to the theory that the Lawrence schools benefit by playing stronger regular season competition

All student athletes benefit from this. High School athletics isn't just about winning a trophy.

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44 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

All student athletes benefit from this. High School athletics isn't just about winning a trophy.

Not necessarily in a physical sport such as football.  You think that New Pal being able to roll through their conference schedule untested didn’t factor into their health come tournament time?

As for the lifelong/mental benefit (which I believe you are referring to above) why have classes at all in any sport if that’s the goal?

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7 hours ago, DT said:

If the MIC sweeps then so be it.

Small 6A is the last group of schools who are basically without representation in the state finals.  The two division format addresses that inequity and is another step towards the achievement of competitive balance.

There are many schools that are doing what it tales to be a champion but are left behind due to the current structure.  They deserve a chance to make it to the big stage just as much as the mega schools do.  

Playing in the shadow of The MIC is the best thing to ever happen to The HCC.  It has pushed the programs to get better.  Most have improved

 

No point in trying to explain this to the mentally challenged. 

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16 minutes ago, BTF said:

No point in trying to explain this to the mentally challenged. 

Lol. So now I’m mentally challenged for not pandering to the lunacy of the thread title?

We don’t need 7 state champions between 300 some schools. That’s idiocy. We already let every team in the tournament to begin with, the idea of crowning 2 separate champions in a class of 32 teams is nonsense. It waters down the entire thing.

If a team like Center Grove can punch above their weight for nearly 2 decades, there surely is a blue print to follow. 

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