Time to fix the broken 6A tournament

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Lol. So now I’m mentally challenged for not pandering to the lunacy of the thread title?

We don’t need 7 state champions between 300 some schools. That’s idiocy. We already let every team in the tournament to begin with, the idea of crowning 2 separate champions in a class of 32 teams is nonsense. It waters down the entire thing.

If a team like Center Grove can punch above their weight for nearly 2 decades, there surely is a blue print to follow. 

Dating back to 1978.

Carmel.....9 state titles. Ben Davis.....9 state titles. Warren Central.....9 state titles. Penn.....5 state titles. Those are 4 of the top 5 largest enrollment schools (mega-schools). 

Bloomington South, Castle,Center Grove,  Columbus East, & Snider (non mega-schools).....8 combined. 

And you think the topic of the thread is lunacy? You can seriously maintain that 6a doesn't need to be fixed?  Center Grove..........bla, bla, bla. Snider has an impressive track record too (although, according to you, have no chance against the New Pal, Cathedral, and Center Grove's of the world). By and large (taking Center Grove and Snider out of the equation), there is a problem. Not sure how one can be so blind not to see this. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by BTF
correction

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Dating back to 1978.

Carmel.....9 state titles. Ben Davis.....9 state titles. Warren Central.....9 state titles. Penn.....5 state titles. Those are 4 of the top 5 largest enrollment schools (mega-schools). 

Bloomington South, Castle,Center Grove,  Columbus East, & Snider (non mega-schools).....8 combined. 

And you think the topic of the thread is lunacy? You can seriously maintain that 6a doesn't need to be fixed?  Center Grove..........bla, bla, bla. Snider has an impressive track record too (although, according to you, have no chance against the New Pal, Cathedral, and Center Grove's of the world). By and large (taking Center Grove and Snider out of the equation), there is a problem. Not sure how one can be so blind not to see this. 

 

 

They already addressed the competitive balance by adding a 6th class you dolt. The next step is to play 180 bowl games at the conclusion of the regular season and give the winner a blue ring and the loser a red ring. Two classes of 16 teams is ABSURD.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Lol. So now I’m mentally challenged for not pandering to the lunacy of the thread title?

We don’t need 7 state champions between 300 some schools. That’s idiocy. We already let every team in the tournament to begin with, the idea of crowning 2 separate champions in a class of 32 teams is nonsense. It waters down the entire thing.

If a team like Center Grove can punch above their weight for nearly 2 decades, there surely is a blue print to follow. 

As discussed previously, Oklahoma crowns 9 state champs in a state with half the population of Indiana.

If you are going to commit to a class structure, you should commit to making it as fair and balanced as you possibly can.

I believe that the addition of a 2 divisional 6A structure would breath some fresh life into the tournament, increase attendance, and encourage additional investment in football at the small 6A level.  I see no downside to this proposal, other than a hectic 4 game Friday schedule.  

 

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

They already addressed the competitive balance by adding a 6th class you dolt. The next step is to play 180 bowl games at the conclusion of the regular season and give the winner a blue ring and the loser a red ring. Two classes of 16 teams is ABSURD.

Competitive Balance has been addressed every time the IHSAA expanded the playoffs.  Fom no playoffs to 3 classes to 4 classes to 5 classes to 6 classes, and now to the divisional structure, just another step towards making a solid tournament even better and more inclusive.

And throw in the Success Factor to boot.

Edited December 2, 2019 by DT

[Guest DT]

Contraction is going to have an interesting impact on the look of big school football in Indiana in the coming years

Elkhart High School will be a mega school with over 3100 projected students, following the contraction of Elkhart Memorial.

Clark and Gavit are contracting in Hammond (following the contraction of Bishop Noll's varsity program) and Hammond High and Hammond Morton are projected as either big 5A or small 6A schools.

New Pal will be an overwhelming favorite to get the Regional title it needs next year to bump to 6A in the next cycle.

Contraction could be coming to South Bend soon.

Lots of movement potentially impacting 6A football, and all the more reason to adopt the 2 division model.

The economic impact of a Hammond or Elkhart or South Bend school making a state run could be significant at the local level.  

 

 

[Footballking16]

12 minutes ago, DT said:

As discussed previously, Oklahoma crowns 9 state champs in a state with half the population of Indiana.

Oklahoma makes their teams qualify for the postseason and 2 or 3 of their 9 classes are comprised of 7 and 9 man football, something Indiana doesn’t offer.

[Guest DT]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

Oklahoma makes their teams qualify for the postseason and 2 or 3 of their 9 classes are comprised of 7 and 9 man football, something Indiana doesn’t offer.

The qualification issue is a non starter.  Indiana will not adopt this model.  And it has no impact on the structure of a 6 class or 7 class tournament.

Oklahoma reveres their 7 and 9 man football just like Indiana reveres its small school 1A football.  No need to marginalize it.  

[BTF]

16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

They already addressed the competitive balance by adding a 6th class you dolt. The next step is to play 180 bowl games at the conclusion of the regular season and give the winner a blue ring and the loser a red ring. Two classes of 16 teams is ABSURD.

You call me stupid, yet bring nothing of substance to the table to rebuttal my post. Go to bed, get some rest, and think of something intelligent to say in the morning. Goodnight. 

[Guest DT]

I have forwarded our discussion regarding proposed changes to Class 6A to Commissioner Cox.  Will update you all on his response and feedback when he gets back to me.

 

[Footballking16]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

You call me stupid, yet bring nothing of substance to the table to rebuttal my post. Go to bed, get some rest, and think of something intelligent to say in the morning. Goodnight. 

LOL. You called me mentally challenged for not thinking class 6A should be split into 2 divisions.

You lost any credibility before you hit submit reply.

There’s ZERO need to further split the classes. It’s watered down as is.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, DT said:

I have forwarded our discussion regarding proposed changes to Class 6A to Commissioner Cox.  Will update you all on his response and feedback when he gets back to me.

 

[Guest DT]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

LOL. You called me mentally challenged for not thinking class 6A should be split into 2 divisions.

You lost any credibility before you hit submit reply.

There’s ZERO need to further split the classes. It’s watered down as is.

Im surprised that you would feel the tournament is watered down.

I guess looking at it from the mountain top where Cathedral sits as Indiana's all time winningest football program supposedly gives you that perspective.

If you truly feel that there is participation equity in the 6A tournament, then more power to you.  Cathedral certainly has been given the opportunity to work the system as well or better than any program in the state, bouncing up and down and back and forth between classifications over the years.  Im sure schools like Warsaw and Castle and Merrillville would love to have the opportunities and the flexibility that the Irish currently enjoy.  

[Lysander]

5A was incorrectly established for this very purpose.

Yet, who has absolutely “OWNED” 5A?

4A schools.

The problem isn’t so much size as it is tradition with almost all of the 5A schools (excepting Snider).....which many of us stated would be the case at the time.

Make classes 2A - 5A 64 team classes and 1A a 32 team class.

[Footballking16]

10 minutes ago, DT said:

Im surprised that you would feel the tournament is watered down.

I guess looking at it from the mountain top where Cathedral sits as Indiana's all time winningest football program supposedly gives you that perspective.

If you truly feel that there is participation equity in the 6A tournament, then more power to you.  Cathedral certainly has been given the opportunity to work the system as well or better than any program in the state, bouncing up and down and back and forth between classifications over the years.  Im sure schools like Warsaw and Castle and Merrillville would love to have the opportunities and the flexibility that the Irish currently enjoy.  

You can’t appease everyone, that isn’t the goal of a postseason. It’s to crown a champion. 

You’ve established this argument that the 6A tournament is some sort MIC championship without realizing that splitting the divisions in half by enrollment only furthers the MIC dominance. Imagine having to hear about Carmel/Ben Davis/Warren AND Center Grove winning a state title every year? Does anything really change?

As far Cathedral goes, what does Cathedral have to do with enrollment disparity in 6A? 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You can’t appease everyone, that isn’t the goal of a postseason. It’s to crown a champion. 

You’ve established this argument that the 6A tournament is some sort MIC championship without realizing that splitting the divisions in half by enrollment only furthers the MIC dominance. Imagine having to hear about Carmel/Ben Davis/Warren AND Center Grove won a state title every year.

As far Cathedral goes, what does Cathedral have to do with enrollment disparity in 6A? 

Its clouds your thinking and rationale.

CG will likely either be 6A D1 by enrollment or will play its way in via the SF.

Im looking for more schools to up their game by getting a legit shot at a state title.

Schools like Warsaw, Carroll, Homestead, Laf Jeff, Merrillville, etc are never in the post season discussion as tournament history clearly eliminates them from any consideration.  

 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, DT said:

Schools like Warsaw, Carroll, Homestead, Laf Jeff, Merrillville, etc are never in the post season discussion as tournament history clearly eliminates them from any consideration.

And you asked me why I thought the postseason was watered down? You just answered your own question. Adding a 7th class of 16 teams no less, just so a namesake high school can win a state title instead of another school is the definition of a watered down postseason. 

[Lysander]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Schools like Warsaw, Carroll, Homestead, Laf Jeff, Merrillville, etc are never in the post season discussion as tournament history clearly eliminates them from any consideration.  

 

Sad to say, but most years those teams listed aren’t even competitive enough to contend for a  3A title.   It’s really hard for the remaining schools to get too bent out of shape regarding their travails.

You mentioned Castle earlier.   Castle can’t even win the SIAC where they are the only 5A school.

Dissecting and re-dissecting 6A until you give out 32 trophies isn’t the cure.

[Guest DT]

8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

And you asked me why I thought the postseason was watered down? You just answered your own question. Adding a 7th class of 16 teams no less, just so a namesake high school can win a state title instead of another school is the definition of a watered down postseason. 

The Oklahoma precedent validates our argument, and we still have 2 fewer classes despite having 3M more in population.  

The Indiana model is more targeted, more precise, more fair, and continues to promote competitive balance.

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, DT said:

The Oklahoma precedent validates our argument, and we still have 2 fewer classes despite having 3M more in population.  

The Indiana model is more targeted, more precise, more fair, and continues to promote competitive balance.

And as I said earlier, just because Oklahoma implements a bad idea doesn’t mean Indiana needs to follow suit. There’s nothing wrong with the current set up.

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

And as I said earlier, just because Oklahoma implements a bad idea doesn’t mean Indiana needs to follow suit. There’s nothing wrong with the current set up.

Jenks and Union are despised in many parts of Oklahoma due to their stranglehold on the big school playoff.

The 6A divisional split has mitigated that issue and created new opportunities for success for additional schools.  Its not a bad idea.  Its a practical solution to a simple problem.  Indiana has the exact same issue.  Oklahoma has tested the model with great success.  All Indiana has to do is follow suit.  Win-Win for all parties involved.

I do find it interesting that the loudest voices against this proposal are PP voices.  Perhaps there is still some bitterness regarding the SF that is impacting your POV on any additional IHSAA moves to regulate football success.  

[Footballking16]

6 hours ago, DT said:

I do find it interesting that the loudest voices against this proposal are PP voices.  Perhaps there is still some bitterness regarding the SF that is impacting your POV on any additional IHSAA moves to regulate football success.

?

If you’ve read any of my posts concerning the Success Factor over the years you would know they’ve been met with general support. The only thing I would tweak is making it a 4 year cycle rather than a 2 year. No bitterness whatsoever.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, DT said:

Its clouds your thinking and rationale.

CG will likely either be 6A D1 by enrollment or will play its way in via the SF.

Im looking for more schools to up their game by getting a legit shot at a state title.

Schools like Warsaw, Carroll, Homestead, Laf Jeff, Merrillville, etc are never in the post season discussion as tournament history clearly eliminates them from any consideration.  

 

Some folks get captured by the moment and cannot see things beyond what is right in front of them at this very moment.

Population trends are something that can not be ignored.  CG, Westfield, and Franklin Central are gearing up to join the mega schools in the not so distant future.

In fact, FC’s recent expansion allows them to house up to 4,000 students!  They have empty classrooms right now as homes are popping up daily.

[BTF]

6 hours ago, Lysander said:

Sad to say, but most years those teams listed aren’t even competitive enough to contend for a  3A title.   

You honestly believe that? You don't think that Homestead would "contend" for the 3a title most years? 

 

6 hours ago, Lysander said:

Dissecting and re-dissecting 6A until you give out 32 trophies isn’t the cure.

I think DT is suggesting that we give out 7, not 32. See my previous post regarding Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central's combined 27 state titles. Three schools who just happen to be 3 of the largest 4 in the state and double the size of most of their 6a counterparts. If Zionsville (2055) has to go through Carmel (5286) for a state title, then what is the point of having a class system at all? Has Chatard ever defeated a team twice their enrollment on their way to a state title? If not, then why are we asking Chesterton, Zionsville, and Jeffersonville to?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, BTF said:

You honestly believe that? You don't think that Homestead would "contend" for the 3a title most years? 

 

I think DT is suggesting that we give out 7, not 32. See my previous post regarding Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central's combined 27 state titles. Three schools who just happen to be 3 of the largest 4 in the state and double the size of most of their 6a counterparts. If Zionsville (2055) has to go through Carmel (5286) for a state title, then what is the point of having a class system at all? Has Chatard ever defeated a team twice their enrollment on their way to a state title? If not, then why are we asking Chesterton, Zionsville, and Jeffersonville to?

We are agreeing WAY too much lately.  😉

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

We are agreeing WAY too much lately.  😉

Passion for high school football is our common ground. Even the two of us will agree sometimes, lol.