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Indiana's Top High School Recruits Say NO to Tom Allen and Indiana Hoosier Football


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https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Football/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=highschool&State=IN

If you are on the IU football recruiting staff, the attached list either makes you swallow your own vomit or justifies Coach Allen's theory that its better to pick up 2 and 3 star leftovers in SEC states than to recruit the home state and Ohio with the same effort and intensity we are seeing from the Purdue staff.

Of course, 2-10/0-9 might have something to do with it as well.

 

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On 7/3/2022 at 1:30 PM, DT said:

https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Football/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=highschool&State=IN

If you are on the IU football recruiting staff, the attached list either makes you swallow your own vomit or justifies Coach Allen's theory that its better to pick up 2 and 3 star leftovers in SEC states than to recruit the home state and Ohio with the same effort and intensity we are seeing from the Purdue staff.

Of course, 2-10/0-9 might have something to do with it as well.

 

Of the players on that list, there’s about 3, maybe 4 that I would say are going to be difference makers at the next level. None of those kids are going to Purdue. Indiana just had its best recruiting class in program history coming off a 2-10 season. I’ll take a 3* kid out of South Florida who plays legit competition 9-10 games a year over a 3* from North Central (for the sake of being from Indianapolis) any day of the week.

Purdue’s top 5 verbals are all either from the South or the Louisville area where Brohm has deep connections. Allen has a connection to South Florida, especially in and around Tampa, where he has coaching roots. Some of IU’s best players the last few years have all been from Tampa…Penix, Whop Phylior, McFadden, Mullen etc

Edited by Footballking16
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18 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Of the players on that list, there’s about 3, maybe 4 that I would say are going to be difference makers at the next level. None of those kids are going to Purdue. Indiana just had its best recruiting class in program history coming off a 2-10 season. I’ll take a 3* kid out of South Florida who plays legit competition 9-10 games a year over a 3* from North Central (for the sake of being from Indianapolis) any day of the week.

Purdue’s top 5 verbals are all either from the South or the Louisville area where Brohm has deep connections. Allen has a connection to South Florida, especially in and around Tampa, where he has coaching roots. Some of IU’s best players the last few years have all been from Tampa…Penix, Whop Phylior, McFadden, Mullen 

Coach Allen next year needs to get back to Indiana kids . If you can't win your state it's hard to compete.you can still get Florida kids but you should have more in state kids.

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7 minutes ago, Snadenjr said:

Coach Allen next year needs to get back to Indiana kids . If you can't win your state it's hard to compete.you can still get Florida kids but you should have more in state kids.

IU has signed plenty of top in-state kids the last few years. Unfortunately, many haven't worked out. 

Indiana, nor Purdue, are ever going to win the state in terms of landing top in-flight talent. And I take little joy in saying this, there just isn't enough talent in Indiana to make it your primary recruiting base if you ever want to seriously compete in the B10. 

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I think people keep forgetting that a major reason the wheels fell off and Indiana last season was the loss of their first 2 QB's and then going with an inexperienced RS frosh. Who in their right mind would think that last year with that happening would be a banner year? They didn't have the depth to absorb that kind of hit.

I don't have high expectations this season, but with more depth at QB with the Mizzou transfer and others coming off injury (i.e., Mullen) it should be a tad more interesting this season.  I just hope they can develop and improve at offensive line.

 

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4 hours ago, Snadenjr said:

Coach Allen next year needs to get back to Indiana kids . If you can't win your state it's hard to compete.you can still get Florida kids but you should have more in state kids.

I’ve never understood this mindset.  Just get the best damn players regardless of geography.

IU basketball fans said the same about Archie, he brings in three consecutive Indiana Mr. Basketball winners and then gets shit canned, lol.

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25 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I think people keep forgetting that a major reason the wheels fell off and Indiana last season was the loss of their first 2 QB's and then going with an inexperienced RS frosh. Who in their right mind would think that last year with that happening would be a banner year? They didn't have the depth to absorb that kind of hit.

I don't have high expectations this season, but with more depth at QB with the Mizzou transfer and others coming off injury (i.e., Mullen) it should be a tad more interesting this season.  I just hope they can develop and improve at offensive line.

 

McCulley was a true freshman who planned to redshirt but otherwise everything you said is 100% correct.

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21 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’ve never understood this mindset.  Just get the best damn players regardless of geography.

IU basketball fans said the same about Archie, he brings in three consecutive Indiana Mr. Basketball winners and then gets shit canned, lol.

You’re not wrong in your premise, however I think there is a substantial difference in terms of top end talent when comparing Indiana high school football players and basketball players. Indiana produces top flight basketball talent just about every year. IU would be a consistent second weekend tourney team if they consistently landed the best prospects in the state. IU has missed on way too many blue chip in-state recruits the last 25 years and the results show.

As far as football goes, I think Indiana generally produces 4-5 guys a class who have legitimate offers from almost every school in the country. And while I’d love for IU to land some of that talent, they just aren’t going to consistently beat out ND, OSU, Mich, etc for those types of players. 

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8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You’re not wrong in your premise, however I think there is a substantial difference in terms of top end talent when comparing Indiana high school football players and basketball players. Indiana produces top flight basketball talent just about every year. IU would be a consistent second weekend tourney team if they consistently landed the best prospects in the state. IU has missed on way too many blue chip in-state recruits the last 25 years and the results show.

As far as football goes, I think Indiana generally produces 4-5 guys a class who have legitimate offers from almost every school in the country. And while I’d love for IU to land some of that talent, they just aren’t going to consistently beat out ND, OSU, Mich, etc for those types of players. 

True. 

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16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

McCulley was a true freshman who planned to redshirt but otherwise everything you said is 100% correct.

Sorry...I thought he did redshirt year prior....even more of a challenge with a true frosh being handed the keys

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2 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Sorry...I thought he did redshirt year prior....even more of a challenge with a true frosh being handed the keys

That was the plan and then IU lost 2 starting QB's in 2 weeks. Dexter Williams who was the third string QB tore his ACL fall camp so can't imagine McCulley getting hardly any reps right up until the time he was thrown to the wolves. 

Tough year for the Hoosiers. 

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41 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That was the plan and then IU lost 2 starting QB's in 2 weeks. Dexter Williams who was the third string QB tore his ACL fall camp so can't imagine McCulley getting hardly any reps right up until the time he was thrown to the wolves. 

Tough year for the Hoosiers. 

I see what you did there…

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/7/2022 at 6:27 PM, Footballking16 said:

You’re not wrong in your premise, however I think there is a substantial difference in terms of top end talent when comparing Indiana high school football players and basketball players. Indiana produces top flight basketball talent just about every year. IU would be a consistent second weekend tourney team if they consistently landed the best prospects in the state. IU has missed on way too many blue chip in-state recruits the last 25 years and the results show.

As far as football goes, I think Indiana generally produces 4-5 guys a class who have legitimate offers from almost every school in the country. And while I’d love for IU to land some of that talent, they just aren’t going to consistently beat out ND, OSU, Mich, etc for those types of players. 

There was a day when few of the high majors bothered with Indiana - Rex Grossman basically recruited himself to Florida because Steve Spurrier's initial response to him was "we don't recruit Indiana." So, as a result, the top kids went to IU and Purdue (or Notre Dame got the guys they wanted, but they've always recruited nationally), so you'd see guys like Rod Woodson stay in-state. Bill Mallory's best teams at IU were built on recruiting in-state kids + getting guys from less-heavily-recruited areas (they had a lot of guys from upstate New York & Canada). 

Nowadays, with national recruiting and Ohio State/Michigan jumping in and recruiting the state much more heavily, it's much more difficult for IU & Purdue to recruit the state and bring in those blue-chip players who might have flown under the radar (getting Omar Cooper was a really good recruit for IU, and his HS teammate Donaven McCulley in the previous class). I know there were some guys Tom Allen *really* prioritized this cycle who went out of state. Tom Allen has a really, really good relationship with the state's high school coaches, but he also works his connections in Florida very well and has had a really good pipeline coming from Tampa. IU signed its best-ever class this offseason, even without a lot of Indiana kids. I don't follow Purdue much, but it seems most of their kids are out-of-state, as well, unless you have a kid like Karlaftis who grows up in Lafayette and Purdue is his first choice. That said, it's *really* difficult to sign guys when you just went 2-10. However, recruiting is cyclical - two years ago, IU had been getting pretty much all of the top in-state kids except some of the Lafayette-area ones. Purdue has done a bit better in-state - Strickland, Allen, et al - in this cycle, but the pendulum will likely swing again. 

Also appears IU is prioritizing the transfer portal - they had a huge portal class this offseason - which may affect HS recruiting a bit more as there are fewer scholarships available for incoming freshmen if you're bringing in 10-12 portal guys a year. 

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6 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

There was a day when few of the high majors bothered with Indiana - Rex Grossman basically recruited himself to Florida because Steve Spurrier's initial response to him was "we don't recruit Indiana." So, as a result, the top kids went to IU and Purdue (or Notre Dame got the guys they wanted, but they've always recruited nationally), so you'd see guys like Rod Woodson stay in-state. Bill Mallory's best teams at IU were built on recruiting in-state kids + getting guys from less-heavily-recruited areas (they had a lot of guys from upstate New York & Canada). 

Nowadays, with national recruiting and Ohio State/Michigan jumping in and recruiting the state much more heavily, it's much more difficult for IU & Purdue to recruit the state and bring in those blue-chip players who might have flown under the radar (getting Omar Cooper was a really good recruit for IU, and his HS teammate Donaven McCulley in the previous class). I know there were some guys Tom Allen *really* prioritized this cycle who went out of state. Tom Allen has a really, really good relationship with the state's high school coaches, but he also works his connections in Florida very well and has had a really good pipeline coming from Tampa. IU signed its best-ever class this offseason, even without a lot of Indiana kids. I don't follow Purdue much, but it seems most of their kids are out-of-state, as well, unless you have a kid like Karlaftis who grows up in Lafayette and Purdue is his first choice. That said, it's *really* difficult to sign guys when you just went 2-10. However, recruiting is cyclical - two years ago, IU had been getting pretty much all of the top in-state kids except some of the Lafayette-area ones. Purdue has done a bit better in-state - Strickland, Allen, et al - in this cycle, but the pendulum will likely swing again. 

Also appears IU is prioritizing the transfer portal - they had a huge portal class this offseason - which may affect HS recruiting a bit more as there are fewer scholarships available for incoming freshmen if you're bringing in 10-12 portal guys a year. 

* Excellent overview.  A few observations.

1. IU has improved its recruiting of 4 star players, but very few, if any, have had an impact on the program.  Most have either transferred or have not impacted the team as you would expect a 4 star would, especially when joining this roster.  

2. Heavy use of the transfer portal, in most cases, is a sign of desperation .  You cant turn over 40% of your roster every year and expect to ever build any consistency.

3. I agree Allen "had" a good relationship with Indiana high school coaches.  Since he took the job, 12 to 15% of the states coaches, on average, turn every year.  So more than half of the coaches who were in place when he joined the staff 6 years ago are gone.  The disastrous 0-9 Big Ten season of 2021 decimated confidence in Allen and his staff throughout the state.  As a high school coach, I would really have to think hard before recommending to one of my players that they subject themselves to 5 years of I football in its current state.  There are so many other better options.  

4. IU staff turnover is the worst in the Big Ten and probably near the bottom in the Power 5 conferences.  This hurts recruiting, especially when Purdue has maintained good staff continuity under Brohm.

5. Bottom line.  Allen will not be the man to lead IU football out of the abyss.  The program saw some success, but the real litmus test is Big Ten wins.  It is likely that the conference will ditch its divisional format and adopt the 3-5-5 scheduling format that the ACC is installing , where each school will have 3 annual common opponents, and then rotate 5 additional BT games with 5 other schools.  IU could draw a common pool of PU/IL/OSU for example, which would alleviate the BT East monster they are currently dealing with.   But this will all happen under a new staff, which I will gladly welcome.

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55 minutes ago, DT said:

* Excellent overview.  A few observations.

1. IU has improved its recruiting of 4 star players, but very few, if any, have had an impact on the program.  Most have either transferred or have not impacted the team as you would expect a 4 star would, especially when joining this roster.  

2. Heavy use of the transfer portal, in most cases, is a sign of desperation .  You cant turn over 40% of your roster every year and expect to ever build any consistency.

3. I agree Allen "had" a good relationship with Indiana high school coaches.  Since he took the job, 12 to 15% of the states coaches, on average, turn every year.  So more than half of the coaches who were in place when he joined the staff 6 years ago are gone.  The disastrous 0-9 Big Ten season of 2021 decimated confidence in Allen and his staff throughout the state.  As a high school coach, I would really have to think hard before recommending to one of my players that they subject themselves to 5 years of I football in its current state.  There are so many other better options.  

4. IU staff turnover is the worst in the Big Ten and probably near the bottom in the Power 5 conferences.  This hurts recruiting, especially when Purdue has maintained good staff continuity under Brohm.

5. Bottom line.  Allen will not be the man to lead IU football out of the abyss.  The program saw some success, but the real litmus test is Big Ten wins.  It is likely that the conference will ditch its divisional format and adopt the 3-5-5 scheduling format that the ACC is installing , where each school will have 3 annual common opponents, and then rotate 5 additional BT games with 5 other schools.  IU could draw a common pool of PU/IL/OSU for example, which would alleviate the BT East monster they are currently dealing with.   But this will all happen under a new staff, which I will gladly welcome.

Speaking to point 5, has IU ever been “out of the abyss” for any substantial amount of time?

Not an Allen guy by any means (I think he’s an attention seeking phony) but isn’t he just the latest guy to have marginal success in Bloomington and move on to a coordinator/assistant job elsewhere once canned?

 

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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

Speaking to point 5, has IU ever been “out of the abyss” for any substantial amount of time?

Not an Allen guy by any means (I think he’s an attention seeking phony) but isn’t he just the latest guy to have marginal success in Bloomington and move on to a coordinator/assistant job elsewhere once canned?

 

The answer to your question is "No." 

Im not a PJ Fleck fan, but look at what he has done at Minnesota over the same period that Allen has been at IU.  Granted, the BT West is a much easier path.  IU and MN were basically equals when Allen and Fleck took over.  MN is now a Top 20 program and Fleck is one of the hottest coaching commodities in the country.  

In my view, I think IU has to turn its recruiting attention to the State of Ohio.  The Buckeye State is fertile recruiting ground and loaded with players that could help rebuild IU football.  The Hoosiers need a coach with deep Ohio ties, probably a MAC coach .   Allen has ignored Ohio, and it shows in IUs pathetic offensive and defensive line depth.  Additionally, Allen has failed to sign any of Indiana's top offensive line talent over the past 3 years, with the exception of Moore from Snider.  Iowa and other schools are coming in and poaching our top kids right under Allens nose.  He is being paid 3.5M a year to recruit and that includes his home state.  The results are awful.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, DT said:

The answer to your question is "No." 

Im not a PJ Fleck fan, but look at what he has done at Minnesota over the same period that Allen has been at IU.  Granted, the BT West is a much easier path.  IU and MN were basically equals when Allen and Fleck took over.  MN is now a Top 20 program and Fleck is one of the hottest coaching commodities in the country.  

In my view, I think IU has to turn its recruiting attention to the State of Ohio.  The Buckeye State is fertile recruiting ground and loaded with players that could help rebuild IU football.  The Hoosiers need a coach with deep Ohio ties, probably a MAC coach .   Allen has ignored Ohio, and it shows in IUs pathetic offensive and defensive line depth.  Additionally, Allen has failed to sign any of Indiana's top offensive line talent over the past 3 years, with the exception of Moore from Snider.  Iowa and other schools are coming in and poaching our top kids right under Allens nose.  He is being paid 3.5M a year to recruit and that includes his home state.  The results are awful.

 

 

I like Mike Neu at Ball State.  He is getting some traction with that program and the cardinals have two straight bowl trips.  After Indiana, Ohio is #2 in total players on the 2022 BSU roster.  Neu is recruiting Columbus, Cleveland and Cincinnati.  Neu's relations with Indiana coaches are strong and current.  Allen had been out of Indiana for 10 years when he arrived in Bloomington.  I think Neu could be a solid choice for the future of IU football.  

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1 hour ago, DT said:

The answer to your question is "No." 

Im not a PJ Fleck fan, but look at what he has done at Minnesota over the same period that Allen has been at IU.  Granted, the BT West is a much easier path.  IU and MN were basically equals when Allen and Fleck took over.  MN is now a Top 20 program and Fleck is one of the hottest coaching commodities in the country.  

In my view, I think IU has to turn its recruiting attention to the State of Ohio.  The Buckeye State is fertile recruiting ground and loaded with players that could help rebuild IU football.  The Hoosiers need a coach with deep Ohio ties, probably a MAC coach .   Allen has ignored Ohio, and it shows in IUs pathetic offensive and defensive line depth.  Additionally, Allen has failed to sign any of Indiana's top offensive line talent over the past 3 years, with the exception of Moore from Snider.  Iowa and other schools are coming in and poaching our top kids right under Allens nose.  He is being paid 3.5M a year to recruit and that includes his home state.  The results are awful.

 

 

Minnesota is NOT a top 20 program…not even close.

Their RB got injured last season in the opener so Fleck (like O’Shea at the high school level) will be judged largely on this fall.

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9 minutes ago, temptation said:

Minnesota is NOT a top 20 program…not even close.

Their RB got injured last season in the opener so Fleck (like O’Shea at the high school level) will be judged largely on this fall.

Fleck is the Big Ten West equivalent of Allen.  Rah, Rah sideline guy with cool team mottos and one liners.

I’m not sure Minnesota is even a top half of the Big Ten level outfit, let alone to 20 nationally.

The boat is sinking.

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12 minutes ago, temptation said:

Minnesota is NOT a top 20 program…not even close.

Their RB got injured last season in the opener so Fleck (like O’Shea at the high school level) will be judged largely on this fall.

https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/ncaa-football-rankings/college-football-rankings-big-ten-power-ratings-2022-season-ohio-state-michigan#gid=ci029be61080032795&pid=7-minnesota-golden-gophers

 

Fleck is rock solid and under no pressure.

Allen's job is on the line

Huge difference between the two.

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18 minutes ago, DT said:

You might wanna dig a bit deeper.  Fleck is dealing with some fairly significant off the field issues as well.

While I agree that Fleck is “safer” than Allen, I’m not sure your analogy fits as well as you think it does.

 

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Just now, temptation said:

You might wanna dig a bit deeper.  Fleck is dealing with some fairly significant off the field issues as well.

 

All Im suggesting is that the MN program is in a much better place than the IU program.  As I said, Im not a fan of Fleck , but he has gotten results, and has benefitted from a very weak division.  If you think its a poor comparison, so be it.  

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5 minutes ago, temptation said:

You might wanna dig a bit deeper.  Fleck is dealing with some fairly significant off the field issues as well.

 

Ill take your word for it.  LOL

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Just now, DT said:

All Im suggesting is that the MN program is in a much better place than the IU program.  As I said, Im not a fan of Fleck , but he has gotten results, and has benefitted from a very weak division.  If you think its a poor comparison, so be it.  

And I agree with that on the surface but that’s partially out of Allen’s control.

Hypothetical, swap divisions and put IU in the west and MN in the east.

For years I’ve had to hear how Paul Chryst and Kirk Ferentz (he’ll even Fleck at times) are better coaches than Jim Harbaugh…

The very imbalance you speak of is ridiculous.

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58 minutes ago, temptation said:

And I agree with that on the surface but that’s partially out of Allen’s control.

Hypothetical, swap divisions and put IU in the west and MN in the east.

For years I’ve had to hear how Paul Chryst and Kirk Ferentz (he’ll even Fleck at times) are better coaches than Jim Harbaugh…

The very imbalance you speak of is ridiculous.

Was saying this to friends last year....put IU in the West and see a different result.

I have never really been a Fleck fan either. I still remember when he took over at Western Michigan. There were a few kids from the MIC that had committed to WMU. When Fleck took over, he revoked the offers to the players from Indiana schools. 

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