PDB26

Probably would have needed more than one.

I've never understood the long grass theory myself. Sure, there's better footing inside on turf, but both teams benefit equally from that. The closest I can get to endorsing such a thing is if it's wet outside, but the poor footing just introduces more randomness that could kill big plays than it does equalize speed. Faster is faster wherever you are. Yeah, I'm with you here. The surface has nothing to do with the outcome. The big factors in '03 were Warren's speed, size, and strength. Throw on top that we weren't a great option defense, even against the conventional option looks of the day, playing a brand new package just for that game, and you get a big number hanging on the board. I've seen a video recently with footage from inside Warren's locker room, and it seems like either Wright had been or felt disrespected, or he did a masterful job with his team in the final minutes before kickoff. Either way, it's no big deal, and every team is trying to prove something.

In fairness to Carroll, Penn had plenty of escapes in its heyday. One man's escape is another's good win.

Sure, but BD's enrollment has been good for all of two championships in the past 20 years. Penn's run is ancient history now, but it isn't because other schools are bigger. If we're talking 6A, Center Grove has four championships and the big 3 have 6 between them. I'm saying, today, that schools in 6A are not more successful than others because of their enrollment. I think that once you clear a threshold of 2/3000, you're much more similar than not and those schools should be relatively competitive given the right additional circumstances. I'm not saying they get waved off. Realistically, though, how many of the 1000 are interested in playing? How many of that number will survive until their senior year? How many of those surviving players are impactful? Enrollment discussions are much more significant in the smaller classes where you could theoretically have more frequent wild swings in class size on a team. It's not like the coach just goes around and says, "you, athlete, are now playing football."

Choose from is an interesting way to describe it. That implies all 1000 additional boys are interested in being part of the football team. We know this is not the case. Center Grove has 4 6A championships. That is twice the number of any of 1, 2, or 3 in 6A. We can just as easily say that it's the competition these schools face week in and out. It's more important that they all play against large schools than it is that any one of them has 3000 or more students enrolled.

5000+ enrollment is at least subject to a law of diminishing returns if it isn't detrimental, so I agree with your main point. I don't know if there's that much substantive difference even down to 2000. The most important raw number would be how many seniors a program can consistently generate over the years. Enrollment helps, but--to your point--not as much as many members here would argue. There are only so many spots on the field. There are only so many guys willing to be on the team in a two deep or deeper role. Nobody can hide from the physicality of this game. There will always be athletes at schools that will not play. Football isn't for everyone. But Center Grove has more 6A state championships than any one of Ben Davis, Carmel, and Warren. Enrollment only increases the opportunity to find those players, not the likelihood. That is not an insignificant distinction.

Framing success as a function of Penn's enrollment relative to the state misses the mark. Further, Penn's recent struggles aren't based in other schools closing an enrollment gap. Could we seriously say that something like, I can't imagine how much more soundly Penn would have been beaten by Carroll in the sectional if Penn had less than the 1000 student advantage they had then? The 1000 student advantage that HSE had over Carroll wasn't a factor in their game either. Since you mention them, sure, the HCC schools have grown into large schools of relative size––to their benefit––but not to Penn's detriment. Penn's program would certainly be sharper if more northern schools in Penn's sphere had grown like the HCC schools.

Agreed. The change in blocking scheme has been unfortunate.

Three concerns/real world considerations. The first would be the schedules for the JV and freshman teams, since I think it is unlikely those teams would be traveling. Penn needs an injection of competition at all levels. The second concern is I'm not entirely sure this arrangement would be seen as reciprocally beneficial for the MIC. Finally, I don't think the gate would be great for anyone. Otherwise, game on.

I think Cory is rightfully ensconced in his position with 194 wins in 20 seasons. It's a little hard to believe, but he's just now about the age Gees was when he hung it up. That doesn't mean Penn couldn't--or shouldn't--be performing better against its peers, nor does it mean that Penn has had any business losing games to Marian or, notwithstanding their substantial success, New Prairie. Consider: Penn and Ben Davis played 17 times between 1991 and 2010 in both the regular season and state finals, (I'm excluding BD's 2017 63-14 state final victory over Penn only because the regular season series ended with the 2010 game) and Ben Davis won 13, scored 361 points, and won by three or more touchdowns on four occasions while Penn won 4, scored 241 points, and never won by more than 16 points (that 16 felt like a lot). Cory and Gees each managed two wins against the Giants. I could run this same process for Penn's numerous playoff encounters with Carmel and Snider through the years, or its history with Valpo. But I think the run with the Giants helps to frame Penn's success during that period to some degree. Things have changed substantially since those years, but I'm unconvinced that either Indiana's open enrollment or a school district in Michigan with a district-wide enrollment of 2,624 students has anything to do with Penn's recent struggles/decline or inability to demonstrate a level of dominance over northern programs on par with its performances in the late 80s, 90s, 00s, and early 10s. The explanations for decline are more likely Penn's failure to bring on a strength coach to start a department wide strength program and the paucity of peer competition in the NIC vis a vis the corresponding availability of peer or near peer competition for programs in places like the Region, Fort Wayne, and Indianapolis than anything like the right guys aren't coming out for ball anymore.

Good rationale. I'd probably rather an additional game against New Prairie or one of the NLC schools you listed. The JV and freshman games would almost certainly be more valuable. I've become very skeptical of any benefit gained by depth guys during garbage time on Friday night, especially with the running clock in play these days.

You had me in the first half, but these two games have to go, too.

I think this argument was suspect when the administration made it in 2002, and does not reflect the reality of Penn's scheduling across almost all of its sports today. Most programs already compete against a number of teams in the Region--both home and away year-to-year--as well as against schools in the SAC plus Carmel and others. The flexibility of days on which all other programs compete mitigates travel concerns even more. A move to the DAC would require a different arrangement for when JV and freshman football games are played, something that should be seen as a welcome and necessary change anyway. Freshman football on Thursdays and the odd the Monday here and there makes no sense. Agreed, just another square peg in a round hole situation. To your point, the NLC would make for a marginal improvement, but that's only because the NIC is one of the most conceivably bad arrangements for Penn in the first place.

Although the East Coast league has two things that high school football does not: beers in the arena and fights.

It doesn't seem like a dumb question to me. First, a disclaimer since my practical knowledge is dated. I always assumed the ADs were either always running the show or they took over at some point. Penn was still handing out NIC all-conference certificates that listed Elston as a conference member more than a decade after consolidating with Rogers. Hard to think an independent committee was issuing those, but maybe we were the idiots.

But isn't the athletic department typically buoyed by one or two programs?

I think Mishawaka's move from the NIC to the NLC is instructive here. It's hard to imagine what the NIC can offer to large-class schools in the north that those schools can't get in their conferences or by scheduling select NIC schools out of conference. Plus, Warsaw would be trading its relatively short trips to play the NLC's weakest teams for hour-long trips to South Bend.

The NIC is an island of misfit toys. In a hypothetical situation where Mishawaka stays in the NIC and SB Schools closes Clay, the conference would probably remain viable even if still a poor fit for the big schools in football. Not so sure the NIC makes it to 100. Outside of picking off Michigan City and Laporte, maybe Valpo--with there being no real reason for the schools to abandon the DAC anyway--it's hard to see a school that's any sort of a fit that hasn't already taken its shot as a member.

Indeed. The fact is the NCAA and all of its operations, including the organization of all sports championships at all levels outside of D1 football, are funded exclusively by the revenues from the basketball tournament. Does the P5 want to create a successor administrative body to oversee D1 athletics when the NCAA no longer has funding to do what it does? The NCAA exists because the members want it to, or, at least they don't want to come up with a new administrative structure. Would a P5–only basketball tournament have the same value as the current NCAA tournament? Or is it the same tournament just administered by the P5? What to do about running championships for all other NCAA sports? The NCAA is an easy target, but as an 11,000 member association it's a pretty slow turning boat. Regarding the Ferris case, it seems like an odd thing for folks to get upset about.

I don't think the P5 is at all interested in organizing the championships in all the other sports or having anything to do with governance, enforcement, or eligibility. But that's just a hunch as to why the NCAA still exists.

about But you do have it right with regard to football. That would be the best the NIC has been in football in...maybe forever; still I think @US31 has it right in that Penn (Elkhart also) is going to need a different arrangement if the goal is making runs in the tournament again.

I'd be curious to know which other sports have declined outside of football's apparent backslide in recent years. While I've argued for a long time that the NIC has a had a negative effect on Penn's (the same will be true for Elkhart) football program because of the size of the other schools, the two-division format was at least an improvement since it allowed for fewer conference games than under the old regime. Specifically, it allowed Penn to avoid playing all four of the South Bend schools at the cost of playing Marian and St. Joe every year. For Penn and Elkhart, the collapse of the current format all but guarantees returning to a six or seven game conference schedule, reducing opportunities to schedule similar sized schools/peer programs, and, in some years, requiring the use of an out of conference game to schedule each other. I suppose if we're ever going to see Penn make a move to get out of its long-standing relationship with the NIC it would be in the near future.

To your point, I had no clue about the additional varsity teams at IMG until a couple of years ago when Brey was hired as the head coach there. I'm not even sure they had the second varsity team at that time.

Brey coaches one of their varsity teams, and I think those teams are members of the FHSAA. They field additional teams at IMG outside of the big team that travels the country.

I think Cathedral is surprising as a shoe-in when there seems to be just one other; maybe the move makes more sense if there were four other schools guaranteed to join. It seems logical that Cathedral, CG, and Carmel all playing as independents could increase the difficulty in scheduling more than each would prefer to have to deal with.