Lysander

Looks like it changed.  Someone told me that a few weeks ago and I told them, “No way.”  Guess I should have read it.

18 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Would be interesting to see if their enrollment numbers change whenever they get success factored to 3A

So you really think the administrators and parents who often struggle financially to keep the doors open (the LCC story is a remarkable one in that regard) are going to leave empty seats in the school because of a ridiculous IHSAA Class designation?  

Catholic schools can’t make it without parents lending a literal “physical” hand let alone leave seats empty.  You really can’t imagine how little Bill Sahm, President at Chatard, could care about what Class the football team is in.

If we can’t get past simply wrong (verging on ridiculous) assertions like this then there’s no hope for ever having any meaningful conversation.

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

One aspect specifically relating to Catholic schools that is often overlooked is multiple K-8 feeders feeding one HS. Looking specifically at smaller classes, but the fact that one HS might have 3-4 QB’s getting quality reps in MS, 6-8 RB’s, 15-20 OL, etc. While their public school counterparts have only one feeder school so competition starts in the 7th grade. Again looking specifically at boys how many public school kids lose interest because their classmates who matured sooner dominated all those positions in MS and walked away. Then the late bloomers are beasts when they’re upperclassmen but they’ve moved on to other things. 

“Thank You” (I’m out of emojis).

CYO teams are tiny in numbers on the team compared to their public counterparts but are many in the number of teams.

The result of that is:

1. Much more personalized coaching because of the generally greater ratio of coaches to players.

2. Much more playing time because of the smaller number of players….which, among other things, keeps kids engaged in the sport.  Keeping kids engaged in the game is critical in CYO…and in Catholic Freshman football.

3. A multitude of position players when they arrive in HS.  If there are 30 small CYO teams, then there are 60 QBs.  One of the most prolific QBs ever at Cathedral was the second QB from his CYO team when he arrived at Cathedral as a Freshman.

I don’t quarrel much with folks when they point out that there is ON THE WHOLE a different kid roaming the halls (with different parents as importantly) on P/Ps v. Publics that often have many who are there solely because they are directed to be but I will leave you all with a question.

If the difference is solely the type of kid (more driven/motivated, more athletic…either or both) then why aren’t the halls of Chatard (since this conversation is, momentarily, focused on Chatard) simply replete with Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, etc. State Championship hardware?  It has been, rightfully, noted here that a certain 3A team generally looks forward to wrestling matches v. Chatard.  Other teams look forward generally to hoops games, etc. v. Chatard.  Chatard Boys generally do ONE sport remarkably well….but are absolutely normal at best in most everything else.

As regards football….something else or in addition must be at play.

PS - I wrote this before reading @tango’s post which I think is very insightful.  “Thank you” (still out of emojis).

43 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Yes,  2022 won Sectional (1 point) and Regional (2 points) lost semi-state. 2023 won Sectional (1 point) lost Regional. They have 4 points thus keeping them in 6A.

I think that amounts to 3 points based on the way the IHSAA score keeps.  

Each progressive playoff victory, commencing with the Sectional Champuonship, adds another single point.  A Regional Championship adds 1 point to the 1 point from the Sectional Championship previously acquired for a running total of 2 points in totality you’ve earned if you win Regional.

That said, one change I’d suggest to the whole Success Factor dynamic is that the number of points required to stay up be reduced to 1…rather than 2.

2 hours ago, BTF said:

Chatard dodges East Central next year in 4A? Who will challenge them? New Pal the best bet? 

East Central vs Cathedral for 5A south. In the north it's looking like more of Merrillville and Valpo. Snider's status is unclear at the moment. 

Chatard played EC during the regular season for a few years in a row just a few years back.  Frankly, between New Pal, Roncalli, Memorial, Reitz and Brebeuf any of them could win the South in 4A over Chatard.  Not to mention any number of other teams could rise.  4A South is a bear. 

Cathedral is dropping down to 5A?  Haven't they earned the prerequisite  2 points to stay up in 6A?

5 hours ago, Boiler Boog said:

I'd imagine it's challenging Freshman year at the Catholic Schools when they bring in kids from all of these different schools who have all run different offenses. Probably takes them longer to "gel" than kids at a public school who have been running the bones of the high school offense already for a few years.

Could be wrong but I'm pretty sure when Coach Doyle was running the Chatard Freshmen program prior to his becoming head coach that they didn't even run the varsity offense and defense.  My understanding was that they were serious and disciplined but really wanted to make it as fun as possible in order to retain kids in the sport. 

13 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

I am not close to the program but @Lysander can't keep secrets and on rare occasions our brain waves sync up (when we actually use them) or at least reminisce about the days of CJB and Ly gets a sugar high. I digress in honor of Lysander's utter appreciation for how the IHSAA handles things with infinite wisdom, he will be suggesting to Coach Doyle to take all non starters and those not on the two-deep and write them on ping pong balls and select the 2 unlucky contestants. Unless of course one of those unlucky contestants mother is on the list to wash the uniforms from the previous game, then a 3rd ping pong ball will be drawn.

 

Just had to go out and bring up "Coach Junction Boy" some of the newer posters can't handle learning about CJB. Careful with those Bit 'O Honey's we don't want too many dentist visits!

Well, I'm not currently allowed within 400 feet of the program since that unfortunate incident involving a Brebeuf fan and a donkey earlier in the year.

More seriously, it has been some years since my kids were in the program so everything I know is pretty much what everyone else knows outside of folks maybe sharing with me what they gleaned from the most recent QB Club gathering.  I'm guessing @Just a dad is much informed than I these days. 

You know, its damn hard to find Bit 'O Honey these days.  I generally have to get it direct shipped by the case.

16 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

There you go with them fancy lawyerin words. That doesn’t usually come out until the weeee hours and empty liquor vessels. 

What time is it….exactly?  

51 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Ugly? As my fraternity brothers would say, “Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.’”

I’m out of reactions, but this is me giving the rest of your post a standing ovation. Well, at least once I put the leg rest down on my Lazy Boy. 

My only question is who will be the other 5 teams to join Brebeuf, Chatard, and Roncalli in the IHSAA mandated sectional? 

I guess this is the thread where the p/p arguments came to reside. At least it’s better than arguing over the Knox High Commanders nickname. 

Yep…totally get that.  A beautiful deconstruction…from a certain perspective.

The other teams have generally been to the West of Indy but I’m assuming it will consist of whatever teams didn’t have a say.  Regardless….I know 3 teams that will be a part of it.

Heh, heh, yeah, I did a double take when I saw they were the Knox  “Redskins”….my knee jerk reaction was to look over my shoulder for the DEI pronoun Reichsmarschall to put me in cuffs when I wrote their mascot name earlier.

8 hours ago, Irishman said:

Or instead of “yes”, it could be “you” 

Not calling you one mind you; although @Lysander may have a different opinion 🤣🤣😂 

 

just kidding. I love when topics get derailed 😂

I reserve that appellation for only the most deserving.

46 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

77 Varsity players for Chatard. @Lysander use to be a 3-way play (cooked, cleaned, and drove) now he retired.

https://bishopchatardathletics.org/wp-content/uploads/Football-Roster.pdf

I stomped the North Side playgrounds with my "Bit 'O Honey" after CJB finally checked into the nursing home.  Have them all to myself these days.  

4 hours ago, gonzoron said:

We just wait for wrestling season here at HH. Chatard can't even come close to us there.

Another reason why there shouldn't be an automatic Class bump for P/Ps.  Outside of football......Chatard.....well....I think you fairly well know.

6 hours ago, Muda69 said:

A Mensa member like yourself can easily decipher a few acronyms.  But I'll play:

Pot. Kettle. Black.   Surely you get the meaning here, my hypocrite friend.

You Have Been Trolled.

Have A Nice Day.

 

Seriously, are you like 10?

2 hours ago, tango said:

We enjoy playing Chatard. Just haven't had the chance since 2018. Maybe we'll get the chance next year.

Keep that Memorial Kryptonite away!!!  Along with the Arctic weather.  Go North Chatard!

4 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Why can't Chatard earn enough points to stay in 4a?   That is a real question 

Coach, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don’t know the history of Chatard in 4A….but it’s going to be Tolstoy in length…but hardly as literary…I’ll leave that to @Muda and his misspelled  acronyms.  For the record, anyone bothering to read this likely should grab a cup of coffee.

For the record, nobody is any less happy about Chatard being in 3A than Chatard football fans….at least this one, anyway.  Pretty sure I represent a majority, though.  With that, 4A is not always better than 3A..but it is in most years.  Regardless, either 3A or 4A is almost always better than 5A – I include in this the 70% of the time 5A is ACTUALLY WON BY A BUMPED UP 4A TEAM. 

If Chatard could somehow ultimately claw its way through 4A into 5A, I doubt it would ever leave 5A.

With that, let’s start with a recent history primer of Chatard in 3A and 4A (4A boldfaced and underlined😞

2013: (Year 1 of the Success Factor with 4 Points required to stay in 4A) Chatard wins Sectional v. Roncalli 28-8.  They lose Regional, in a game that was decided late, v. New Palestine.  This year was the start of New Pal’s great success under Coach Ralph.  Their Chatard win was the first statewide sign something special was cooking there. Chatard earns 1 point.

2014: Chatard rolls over and supines itself to Roncalli 31-6 in Sectional after beating them 20-7 in the regular season.  No further comment.  Chatard earns 0 points…back to 3A.

2015: Chatard wins 3A State

2016: Chatard loses to Danville in 3A Sectional (Coach Vince Lorenzano’s last year)

2017: Chatard loses to Danville in 3A Sectional (Coach Rob Doyle’s first year)

2018: Chatard loses 3A Semi-State to Evansville Memorial…admittedly losing ugly.

2019: Chatard wins 3A State (CalPreps had Chatard  ranked #3 All Classes…New Pal was ranked #1 All Classes)

2020:   Chatard wins 3A State (CalPreps had Chatard ranked #6 All Classes).  For the record, they beat later 4A state champion Roncalli 28-7 that year (Roncalli’s sole loss). 

2021: Chatard loses to Roncalli in 4A Sectional 35-21.  Lest folks forget, this was the year Roncalli with their monster line (just coming off a State Championship) was talked about much like East Central today….until they lost in an upset to Mt Vernon (who easily won State).  Chatard earns 0 points.

2022: Chatard is put back in 3A (don’t ask me why…I still don’t understand it).  Chatard wins 3A State.

This is the history.  Chatard has only ever been in 4A for 3 years.  They’ve only been knocked out of 4A once in 2014 where they needed 4 points to stay up. 

That said, in 2024, have no doubt the slack jaws at the IHSAA will put Brebeuf, Chatard, Roncalli, Cincy Elder, Cincy St.X and Cincy Moeller in the same Sectional….or dream about it, anyway.  Regardless, Brebeuf, Chatard and Roncalli WILL be in the same Sectional….because….

In its absolute worst years, Chatard will almost always be a top 5-10 4A team (I believe they should be in the North...for the record).  Frankly, Chatard doesn’t seem to experience the same high/low swings Roncalli does. Still, historically Chatard will almost always also split 50/50 with Roncalli…who has a bit of a tradition, as well (but tends to have bigger “lows” than Chatard does in off years).  When Roncalli is “good”, they’re “State Champion good”.

Regardless, I have been told until my ears bleed that the IHSAA DEEPLY evaluates these Sectional groupings considering a multitude of factors including historic conferences…..yada, yada, yada….BS, BS, BS….smoke blowing up my hindquarters. Which has always been used to explain just how Roncalli’s next door, talking over the fence neighbor New Palestine is never paired with Roncalli in Sectional…but 45 minute North Indianapolis cross-county Chatard is ALWAYS paired with Roncalli.

That said, can’t the IHSAA figure out a way to simply put Chatard, New Pal and Roncalli in 3 different Sectionals?  Just that little effort would likely keep a prolonged and forever peace in 3A.

Tragically, the IHSAA has continued to give us year after year the “Sectional of Death” in 3A (copyright to @foxbat) or equivalent which, by any consideration, is gerrymandered as Hell but always has Chatard in the crosshairs (along with every Indiana HS Catholic north of the Mason Dixon line)….but ultimately screws over tons of great teams like TV, HH, WL, Guerin and too many teams to mention.  I’m still p!ssed off as to how badly Tippecanoe Valley was screwed over between Sectional pairings and the damn ping pong balls.

I have no doubt they will continue that proud tradition into 4A next year…wherever those Catholic Schools might be.

If the IHSAA truly gave a sh!t about the principle behind the Success Factor shouldn’t it ALSO be a consideration in that DEEP evaluation of Sectional pairings…or do you just let another equivalent of the 3A TW AD (some of you get the “code”) make the pairings in 4A as well?

Up to this point, the IHSAA Sectional pairings appear nothing more than self-interested groupings by those school administrators involved in the decision making process with no actual consideration of the overall picture….those non-decision makers  get the “Sectional of Death”.

I’m as angry as anybody about Chatard being in 3A (whether they win or lose this Friday…or possibly the following week).

The Success Factor can actually work if the IHSAA  actively considers the principle behind it as regards Sectional groupings. I say this as someone who was a very vocal sceptic…just ask Coach Gallogly.  If they don’t, and just allow it to become the playground for self-interested 4A  ADs…like those behind the "Sectional of Death" in 3A, then nothing will be resolved.

My guess is that, ultimately, those involved in the decision process at the IHSAA will most likely place self-interest over principle come Sectional announcement time.

Please, prove me wrong.

You can now return to the original thread....

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

PKB, Lysander.  PKB.

YABT.  HAND.

 

Use your words….that’s what I always told my children.  It’s a stretch…but try.

37 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Most if not all of the Chaturd fans on this forum have never visited or even know off the top of their head where Royal Center is located.   Besides, you are mentioning a 1A program,  not worth the the Condomites time or effort. 

 

Good God…get over yourself and the imputed false virtue….it’s boring and way too self-congratulating.

My best bet is that you’ve never heard of Laurel, Indiana (God forbid got liquored up there at the Long Branch, rode/wrecked dirt bikes there…or have pre-teen scars from the muffler burns), long closed Whitewater HS…..or Fairfield, Indiana where my relative’s unremembered farm and family life is at the bottom of a reservoir.

Being “from” a place doesn’t make anyone special….whether large or small.  

Neither does being a pretentious @sshole….whether large or small.

5 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I’m glad someone read my ramblings.  I have managed to tick off all my P&P buddies this year lol.  We are healthy enough to not have any excuses.

“Tick off all my P&P buddies”….I’m just keeping a low profile. 

To be clear, I think the IHSAA as regards how they organize the tournament and absolutely refuse to at least internally seed Sectionals are a bunch of intellectually low grade Jackwads (think I made up a new and descriptive…and, yet, uncensorable noun….if that’s a “word” at all) yet have somehow ended up with the South Semi-State that seems to perfectly reflect the actual end result of a “seeded” South. 

10 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

I would give Knox a punchers chance if they were running Coach Radtke's Wishbone and playing at Broad Ripple. Due to IHSAA restrictions and @Lysander chagrin the Semi-State playing days at Broad Ripple are no longer. The Knox Redskins get to play at the shiny new (well not brand new but newish) palace at Kessler Blvd and Crittenden Ave instead of the pasture 1 mile Northwest from Chatard where bloodied knees and elbows were born.

In all seriousness it is not probable that the Redskins will upset the Trojans but it's not impossible. The beauty of it is that's why we play the games they will have the chance to try and beat Chatard and getting that chance is all you can ask for. Now if only we could petition for a one last hurrah at Broad Ripple Ave and Compton St. all would be right in the @Lysander household!

Screw the IHSAA, Coach Radtke has long earned the right to have his undefeated Knox Redskins to play on the “Field of Champions”.  Winner take all!

Quite literally, Chatard’s only football field on site was dirt, rocks, periodic broken glass and goose poop (per Coach L).  My oldest would often return home with cuts and bruises having nothing to do with the bump and grind of actual player v. player.  The opponent was often the field as much as other players during practice.  It alternated between mud and a dust bowl…..but it was only…however briefly…..grass….up until 2011 (I think…please feel free to correct me).  

Regardless, even after the new field in 2011(?), it was solely a practice field.

Let’s not even mention the truly primitive weight room (if one could call it that) and the somewhat more than occasional staff infection in those medieval locker rooms.  I can recall Tim Adams calling it the worst facility in the state…not so much being derogatory but rather as he marveled at it as proving facilities, ultimately, just don’t matter.  Quite literally…”doing more with less” as I often hear from a team further down the street.

As regards the Broad Ripple HS football field, I recall, Coach Carol Purichia talking about Chatard players in his day carrying and putting sod on the Broad Ripple field in preparation of the season.  

You do what you have to do when the only resources you have are a strong back and your own two hands.

So, yes, Broad Ripple should be Holy Ground as regards Indiana HS Football.  I admit to, often in jest, calling it “the Field of Champions”…but well……if blood, sweat and tears make a ground holy….

For all the talk about dynasties, unfair advantages, Success Factors, etc….what gets lost is the real history and the literal generational struggles it takes to consistently succeed.  People only want to look at the championships today but not what it took to be there…sadly common in today’s instant gratification society.  

8 hours ago, Sledge said:

@Lysander and I will both petition to play at the Hallowed Grounds of Broad Ripple!

Amen.

2 hours ago, Cyoguru said:

St. Michael is the only CYO team to participate in the Cadet AAA division every year since CYO started this class system in 2005. Prior there where 4 divisions and only one champion. It's difficult to win a Cadet Big division city championship. Alot of things have to go your way.

St. Michael Cadet AAA Finals appearances

Champions 2023-2022-2016-2009-1977-1958-1957

Runner up 2018-2017-2007-2006-1968

Looks like this is it for me, but I am always around. 

Just to give one some idea how difficult it is to win an Indy CYO championship, I can recall a certain AAA Cadet St. Matthew team (very well coached btw….especially since I had nothing to do with it by that time) some years back that had what later turned out to be 2 future NFL lineman (8th graders) and a University of Louisville scholarship lineman (7th Grader)…..not to mention another lineman who ended up on the Top 50 Indiana HS players All Classes his Senior year.  Literally a future D1 (plus) college line.  By the time playoffs arrived, their two primary running backs were out.  One (a later HS All-American in another sport) had broken his arm earlier in the season v. St. Simon and the other was concussed.  Regardless, they still had a backup RB who later played for Ball State as a DB…a tough, athletic kid with speed.

They lost to St. Michael in the semi-final in a 3-4 overtime game….and St. Michael later lost to St. Pius in the Championship.

That’s how tough it is to claim an Indy CYO Championship.

Guru, I’m truly sad to hear you are stepping away but have no doubt that you have had a life changing affect on these kids they will mark as definitive and guiding as they become great men, husbands and fathers.  

May God Bless you and yours, Sir.

1 minute ago, temptation said:

My only concern is for the safety of the Snider players…how many D1 players at Merrillville this year?

27.5?

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

Do programs like Chatard have any influence on how CYO teams are ran? I would assume a school like St. Pius X is sending a majority of their kids to Chatard based on distance. Does their coaching staff have a Chatard influence? 

No, there’s really no influence.  Certainly no direction as to offenses, defenses, etc. unlike, I think, at Center Grove. 

Pius is going to send kids to Chatard, Cathedral, Brebeuf and N. Central/LC.  Not sure of the split.

The coaching staff’s aren’t really influenced outside of any personal preference they might have towards a certain HS.  That said, Coach Doyle (who is a practicing attorney) got his start as a CYO coach at Pius (I believe) many years back before becoming a long time Freshman coach at Chatard and now the varsity coach.

1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

Wait wait.  How can a 3/4th grade team properly execute a double hand-off reverse flea-flicker with only 7 players?  Blasphemy.  At least please tell me every team has a coach's kid playing QB?  That is how youth football should be played.

What is the difference between AA and AAA?  Is it team size (# of players) or school size? Maybe something else? 

I’ll defer to Guru but I think it’s general number of players, ratio of 7/8, 5/6 and 3/4 players on those teams and perhaps some other factors.  It’s been a few years….

My cousin and her husband, Danny, are both Connersville HS grads.  After many years away working for Caterpillar in the Peoria area they moved back to Connersville to be closer to my Aunt and Uncle.

This past Spring, my wife and I visited with them in Connersville over a long lunch along with my, sadly, recently widowed Uncle Morris.  Connersville, as most us here likely know, has never had much of a football tradition and is, almost exclusively, a basketball town.  

Danny, knowing I’m a big follower of HS football stated, “You know, Connersville had a couple of pretty good years where it looked like they were going to become a seriously solid football school.  They had this young coach named Russ Radtke.  Then he moved on.  You ever heard of him?”

I chuckled inwardly and responded, “Yeah…he’s still floating around out there.”

PS - I did later tell him just how successful and remarkable Mr. Radtke’s coaching career continued to be….to this day.

Kudos and best wishes to Coach Radtke and the Knox HS Redskins as they visit the Chatard Trojans this Friday.