Lysander

I don’t want to get too far from the subject of this thread but I think I may need to clarify my statement a bit based on points/questions raised by both @Komets2727 and @BTF.  I appreciate both your perspectives.

When I was referring to 5A (as it is constituted today), my critique was of the teams that were 5A by actual enrollment not those Success Factored teams like Cathedral, New Pal or Columbus East who were all 4A teams by enrollment.  In fact, they bolstered my point as to the overall weakness of the class.  In the 10 years this new 5A has existed it has been won 7 times by 4A interlopers.  In fact, the year Westfield won they likely were a mid-size 6A school by then.  Only Snider and Valpo have won as actual 5A schools by enrollment.

The fact this was going to occur was something I stated way back when the new 5A was announced because it was so obvious.

As to 4A and potentially 3A in certain years, being superior to 5A teams (by enrollment) it seems pretty clear to me that when 5A is won by a bumped 4A team 7 out of 10 years that the top of 4A is superior.  But aside from that, even in years where a certain 4A team (or even the top 3A team or so) might not be Success Factored “up”, they likely are better than the best 5A school by enrollment.  Certainly East Central both this year and last year would be the odds on favorite in 5A.  Roncalli was much better when it won 4A a couple of years back. It’s hardly been unusual for Chatard to be ranked higher than any 5A by enrollment (I believe it happened in both 2019 and 2020….and is the case currently).

Heck, CalPreps has the top 4A, 3A and EVEN 1A Lutheran ranked ahead of every 5A school currently.  I know Sags has Bloomington South ranked in the Top 10….man, how I wish South hadn’t bailed on that CI/CCC conference game matchup they would usually have played against Chatard last weekend.

My point is that when 70% of the State Championships in your class (5A in this case) are won by teams originally from a class below it seem pretty prima facie evidence of the weakness of the class.  I’m not sure there is anything more definitive….and it’s nothing new.  It’s always been like that.

18 hours ago, BTF said:

Elaborate on that if you would.

I have beat this same drum since the split of 5A but I will start this the same way I start any commentary I have made about the “new” 5A since its inception.  In the new 5A, with the exception of Snider (and to a much more limited degree – Zionsville…there could be a couple of others…but I doubt it), the “new” 5A was formed of teams that did not exactly define football excellence.  I believed it then and I’ve seen nothing but further affirmation since its birth that it is the weakest class pound for pound.  It may crank out D1 players by the gross (I don’t know or care) but the teams themselves are generally underachieving as compared to the other classes.

So, how did this happen?  After much, b*tching and moaning, from most all of the “old” 5A teams against the mega-schools like Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, etc., the IHSAA in its Solomon-like wisdom decided that actually cutting the baby in half was, in fact, the best solution.  So, we now have a 32 team 6A which it turns out has largely been dominated by a team that is one of the smallest 6A schools…hardly a “mega-school”.  That said, of the 32 remaining teams in 6A, minimally 20 of those teams have no better chance of winning 6A than the split 5A teams had of winning it previously….sucks to be them, I guess.

So now, the IHSAA, in its baby-splitting wisdom, forms a new Class 5A composed of the remnants of the old 5A at the same time as it establishes the Success Factor.  I didn’t have to be a genius to look at ALL the analytics and the easy evidence of these new 5A teams actually playing good 4A teams (with the exceptions above) to be able to state the obvious – the IHSAA had basically put together a 32 team class of punching bags for bumped up 4A teams.   

Invariably, by season end, the analytics usually had several 4A (and even 3A) teams that were by all measure better than the best current 5A team.  They might not have been bumped up at that time but they were, frankly, better.  5A was an absolute gift to Cathedral those first couple of years versus 4A.

So why did these new 5A teams merit an abortive 32 team class?  Beats me....just split the baby says the butcher rather than the surgeon....its easier.

It seems to me the smallest 1A teams might have a stronger claim to needing that first playoff weekend off.  My sense is that some of those schools might well have to struggle to put their best team out there by season end...maybe even a full team.  An extra week to heal would likely do them a lot more good.   

A 64 team 5A would simply be a much better Class.  It would be much deeper and more internally competitive in every regard and you wouldn’t ever end up with a 3 team pint-sized Sectional. 

To be clear, as ridiculous as I consider a 3 team “Sectional” to be, I consider 5A, in its current 32 team format to be entirely ludicrous…and generally not very good comparatively.

5A Sectional 12 has 3 teams in it.  

3 Teams….one of which is Snider (whom I admire)…but still..3 freakin’ teams.

I’m sorry but 5A as it stands today is a joke.

Chatard           42

Shortridge        6

Final

Chatard            42

Shortridge         0

Start of 2nd Half

Running Clock

Chatard              35

Shortridge            0

2:40 left in 2nd Q

Chatard         28

Shortridge      0

10:00 left in 2nd Q

Chatard     21

Shortridge   0

start of 2nd

32 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

So I understand FB16's frustration with the Rebels...er, I mean Royals.  (just awful name change)

I think you, FB16 and me can all agree that the name change was “cowardly”.….and gutless from my own perspective.

Swear to God, I always have to ask the person I’m talking to at the moment what Roncalli calls itself these days because I can’t remember their new gutless, homogenized name.  

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral isn't a deanery school. Never has been and never will be. PHJ says it every year and as cliche as it sounds, Cathedral literally has to recruit every single one of its students. They have zero inherent feeder schools. The presence of south deanery kids on Cathedral's varsity roster is minimal at best and has been that way dating back to the time of this gentleman's agreement. The CYO presence in general is dwindling and that has been a consistent trajectory. It's just a stupid hill for Roncalli to die on

It isn’t…..but neither is Brebeuf.  But EVERYBODY else involved in cooperatively developing the agreement ultimately signed off….until one school decided it didn’t need to.

Every P/P has to recruit every single one of its students.  Cathedral is neither alone or exceptional as regards that situation.  Public schools are free to everyone…..well…not exactly free as I realize each May and November.  “Ubiquitous” might be a better word choice.

I thought EVERYBODY at Cathedral was either a home grown, dyed in the wool Papist OR generational legacies…or both.  So that is no longer the case?  Admittedly, I don’t keep up with the current corporate marketing theme.

4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You and I, along with everybody else, knows this had nothing to do with the principal agreement put in place and everything to do with Roncalli hitting a down cycle and not wanting to continue getting their tails kicked in. Roncalli still and to this day has scheduled Cathedral in every sport (Frosh, JV, Varsity) minus varsity football. It’s never been about what you’ve just claimed.

Roncalli wanted Cathedral to become more “Catholic” in regards to their football roster and Cathedral said, “We’re good”. Roncalli, took their ball and went home and the directions of each program couldn’t have gone different routes.

Cowards.

Truthfully, I really don’t know.  The timing certainly was spot on as to Roncalli pulling the plug on the games.  I’d certainly have supported either Chatard OR Roncalli if they had refused to play Cathedral after that entire situation…which remains to this day as I understand it.  I’ve often thought Chatard demonstrated moral cowardice for NOT cancelling all their athletics with Cathedral and acting on principle.  

Admittedly, I’d have expected that plug to be pulled for all sports in Roncalli’s case….assuming that was the reasoning behind ending their seasonal football game.  I defer to Roncalli folks but the timing is more than coincidental…and I’m not a big believer in coincidence,

Regardless, that little bit of information is clearly relevant and remains an ongoing stain on Cathedral’s dealings with all the Indy Catholics….let alone the Publics. 

“Rules for thee but not for me.”

I’d cite something about glass houses but that might be too obvious. 

7 hours ago, vicvinegar said:

In 3A, 5 of the top 9 are in the same sectional. What a rough sectional to get out of. 

Business as usual as regards any Sectional containing Chatard.  Its what the IHSAA does.  To be clear, if Brebeuf were still in 3A they would absolutely be in this Sectional as well (since all Catholic schools within 2 hours of one another must be in the same Sectional).

State Law....lest @Donnie Baker disapproves.  He is the authority here.

6 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I don’t think it’s just Roncalli that hates Cathedral. 
And I seem to recall some other issues ending the contract, but I’m old, my memory ain’t what it used to be. 

I personally very, very much like @FootballKing16, but as regards Roncalli cowardice (and he loves to long beat that drum), my assumption is his memory is much less creaky than mine - YET he has overlooked the agreement that all the archdiocese schools, Brebeuf and Cathedral generated around 2006-7 (maybe a year either way).  As I understand, Cathedral EVEN helped develop it....until they decided they wanted nothing to do with it and it didn't apply to them.  

At the end of the day, the agreement was that those participant coaches and schools (Archdiocese schools, Brebeuf AND Cathedral.) could reach out to CYO TEAMS on a GROUP basis to promote their schools BUT could not reach out to the next INDIVIDUAL "Johnny Football" ("Johnny Soccer", etc........or the ENTIRE Pike Township Jr. High Basketball ALL-STARS as it might have happened) or his/her/its/they/mutant ninja turtle's parents on an individual basis and tell them they were going to start at QB as Freshman before their brief stop to Notre Dame.

From my observation, Roncalli stepped away from playing Cathedral at almost exactly the same time Cathedral said, "Screw You Guys!....we ain't playing by the rules we all agreed to.  But the rest of you can".  Pretty much a business as usual Cathedral position.  Somewhat surprised anyone participating expected anything different.

Rules are for the rest of us.

I actually have long admired the Rebels for that stance.....at least, until they became the "Royals" (wtf?).  Sign me on to @FootballKing16 as to Roncalli "cowardice" in that case....makes me kind of want the Irish to kick their morally cowardly @ss.....almost.

At that point, Roncalli stepped back.  Seems to me they just decided not to to business with someone unethical....speaking as a businessman.

As to hating a school, all I can say is that as an unsophisticated, poor-@ss Irish, kid from the hills and hollars of southeast Indiana, upon moving to Indianapolis some 45 years ago I NEVER "hate watched" Notre Dame hoping they would lose every game in every sport (I actually used to be a fan of Notre Dame).......until I first stumbled upon Cathedral HS  while having kids in the Archdiocese. 

Even better, as an Irishman (okay...German-Irish....I married a Catholic), I've even become a cheerleader of Cromwell's conquest of Ireland circa 1650.

Don't let anybody think that Cathedral doesn't influences lives.

Guess my work is done here.  

Me just making friends and building bridges.

Its what I do.

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Was referring to public schools. 

I think you’re basically referring to IPS as opposed to the Township Schools……Pike excepted.

1 hour ago, Donnie Baker said:

Lawrenceburgs had a big streak in the 70’s but had to forfeit several games because they were cheaters.

I was actually a beneficiary of that.  I still have a Cincy Enquirer photo from the sports page of a young Lysander v. Brian Way (?) of the Tigers at that time.  Probably the only time in my life I actually made a proper form solo tackle.

1 hour ago, BTF said:

It sounds to me like Indy Lutheran might have 3A/4A type resources. Indy football inside the donut is amongst the worst in the state.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing but it’s unclear to me just what you mean by Lutheran having “3A/4A type resources.”

As to Indy football inside the donut being amongst “the worst in the State” all I can say is that Brebeuf, Cathedral, Chatard, Ritter and Scecina are all inside the 465 “donut” (if that is the “donut” you are referring to).

The entire Lutheran thing reminds me a lot of the LCC “discussions” back prior to the advent of the Success Factor era.  Despite a couple of occasions when I might have disagreed a bit with some of its fans, LCC had several continuous years of teams that punched well above their class - often beating a really strong 3A West Lafayette annually if I recall correctly.  
 

I also find myself thinking of 2A Luers during Jaylon Smith’s Senior year.  I think they were an ABSOLUTELY legit top 10-15 team that year.  I can’t recall if they outright won the SAC that year but they handled a very good Ritter team (admittedly with a couple of injuries) who also could have been a Top 25 team at LOS.

I’m looking forward to this weekend’s Bloomington South/Brebeuf game.  By all rights given Brebeuf’s massive fail this past Friday, I’d generally favor BS big….but I’ve always been a little dubious about South.  I will say, though, that South’s handling of CN this past Friday went a ways towards consolidating in my mind that they might actually be pretty decent.

With that, I don’t know anything about Brebeuf’s injury situation, etc.  I just know I was shocked when they beat Roncalli a couple of weeks ago.

I was also pretty stunned how close that Guerin/Northview game was on Friday.

4 hours ago, Staxawax said:

You know he was "Rockford" in "Rockford Files", right?

Gandolph “Gandy” Fish (Isaac Hayes) who served time with Rockford always referred to him as “Rockfish”.  Everyone else in the show called him “Jim”…..excepting Angel Martin (the brilliant and, sadly, recently deceased Stuart Margolin) who always called him “Jimmy”.

The Rockford Files is my favorite TV show of all time.

On 9/28/2023 at 9:31 PM, Donnie Baker said:

I saw Annie there at Starlight Musicals. I swear to God I did

On my first coach’s visit to Butler in late May back in the day I pulled my ‘74 Firebird Esprit (same as Jim “Rockfish” Rockford’s but with a lot more unpainted “Bondo” patches) into the shared Hinkle/Starlight Musicals parking lot.   Fresh from the unnamed hills and hollers of southeast Indiana and not knowing my way around Indianapolis (or Butler), I walked into the open entrance to Starlight Musicals just before Noon…..Coach Lyons was waiting for me in his office on the main floor at Hinkle.  

As I walked in, I heard this smooth baritone voice coming from the stage.  There was a man singing and a woman playing a piano accompaniment.  It was only the 3 of us in the entire facility but I couldn’t quite make out just who the two were on stage.

Being curious, and fairly self-unaware at the time, I walked down to the foot of the stage like I owned the place to see some middle-aged lady playing the piano for Gomer Pyle…who was, somehow, out of uniform.

I assumed he was on leave since there was no evidence of Sgt. Carter to be seen.

Completely true story.

That Memorial/Reitz score last night went a long ways towards legitimizing Reitz for me last night.  Given the closed nature of the SIAC, I’m always a little circumspect judging pre-playoffs but invariably those teams are good year in and year out. Reitz’ thoroughgoing win over Memorial makes it appear something special is cooking there this year.  

Maybe the only potential threat to East Central’s steamroller?

3 minutes ago, ptr said:

Terre Haute South 32 Brebeuf Jesuit 25 (final)

Brebeuf's two previous losses were to the 3A No. 1 Chatard and 3A No. 2 Guerin Catholic in the coaches poll and they lost to a team with a losing record tonight, so this was a surprising game result. 

Wow!!  Total shocker.  
 

It appears Guerin had a tough come from behind game at Northview tonight as well.

This thread is priceless!

Chatard            41

Andrean            0

Final

I think Andrean only got into Chatard territory once.

Chatard         41

Andrean          0

2:01 left in 3rd