25 Years of Sagarin (6A)

[FastpacedO]

12 hours ago, BTF said:

Agree. I appreciate the numbers that are provided for us. It's all for fun anyway. It's hard to tell who really could beat who from one year to the next. All we really know are that some teams from Warren and Ben Davis are at the top. 

Well one thing we do know. If we were to go to Ben Davis football field and throw #24 Steve Holman (91 BD Running Back) and #21 Alijah Price (current BD Running Back) on the field in pads I know who I would put my money on.

I know what your thinking, Price. Well to @temptation chagrin I am taking Holman because I am relying on the crafty ole' veteran to use a foot to trip Price! All kidding aside you are 100% spot on  BTF.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Well one thing we do know. If we were to go to Ben Davis football field and throw #24 Steve Holman (91 BD Running Back) and #21 Alijah Price (current BD Running Back) on the field in pads I know who I would put my money on.

I know what your thinking, Price. Well to @temptation chagrin I am taking Holman because I am relying on the crafty ole' veteran to use a foot to trip Price! All kidding aside you are 100% spot on  BTF.

Still haven't seen anyone as good as Vaughn Dunbar, and that was 1986. Those 80's and 90's boys can hang with the current "athletes." I have no doubt. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Well one thing we do know. If we were to go to Ben Davis football field and throw #24 Steve Holman (91 BD Running Back) and #21 Alijah Price (current BD Running Back) on the field in pads I know who I would put my money on.

I know what your thinking, Price. Well to @temptation chagrin I am taking Holman because I am relying on the crafty ole' veteran to use a foot to trip Price! All kidding aside you are 100% spot on  BTF.

Holman couldn’t catch De’Wayne Hogan, Jesse Avant, Chris Evans, or Alijah Price.

He’d be one hell of a fullback or tight end today though.

[Bash Riprock]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:15 AM, FastpacedO said:

I am not so sure I would say 2015 wasn't a strong year in 6A. Center Grove's Titus McCoy was a fantastic RB. There were some terrific games in the South Bracket that year. Cathedral (in 6A at the time) lost in 2 OT's 37-34 in a great game to Brandon Peters led Avon at Avon and Center Grove edged out Warren Central 24-13. Then Center Grove in 2 OT's squeaked by Brandon Peters (Indiana Mr. Football and Gatorade Player of the year) led Avon  35-34 at Center Grove. Back to back double OT games for Avon. In the North you had Penn upset a 2 loss Carmel team (Cincy LaSalle and Center Grove) at Penn. Penn lost to CG 28-16. CG and Carmel reloaded and played for State the following year with Camel besting CG in OT 16-13 in a great game. I would say it was a strong year in 2015 for 6A just a little more parity and not one team showing total dominance.

That one still hurts.  In OT, on first down McCoy carries to the 1 yd line.  He's hurt and out. (already lost another key starting RB)  Run Yeast behind tackle (not what he's typically asked to do) and fumbles into endzone.  (controversial as sideline shots show he broke plain prior to fumble)  Regardless, Carmel recovers and kick FG on first play.  Ballgame.  McCoy not injured, that ball is in the endzone.  Football gods not with the Trojans that day.  Close to being a repeat champion in 2016.  Both defenses played lights out football.

[Bash Riprock]

23 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

There are major flaws in Sagarin especially with teams that have out of State opponents or teams that are locked into only conference teams. I have stating that for years. 

Here are a look at CalPreps Dynasty ratings for Indiana (only did top 25 first photo) and Top Single Season (only did top 25 2nd, 3rd, 4th photo). Note the 2015 CG team came in at #24

I do see the 6A team with the most victories over that period.....

[temptation]

3 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

That one still hurts.  In OT, on first down McCoy carries to the 1 yd line.  He's hurt and out. (already lost another key starting RB)  Run Yeast behind tackle (not what he's typically asked to do) and fumbles into endzone.  (controversial as sideline shots show he broke plain prior to fumble)  Regardless, Carmel recovers and kick FG on first play.  Ballgame.  McCoy not injured, that ball is in the endzone.  Football gods not with the Trojans that day.  Close to being a repeat champion in 2016.  Both defenses played lights out football.

Helluva memory.

[FastpacedO]

14 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

I do see the 6A team with the most victories over that period.....

Who F.W. Snider with 219? I only kid I know that Snider just moved up to 6A.

What amazes me is that Carmel is only 2 games behind CG. Just seems like there have been many wins by CG would have been more separation.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Who F.W. Snider with 219? I only kid I know that Snider just moved up to 6A.

What amazes me is that Carmel is only 2 games behind CG. Just seems like there have been many wins by CG would have been more separation.

I maintain that with a healthy Quale Lewis, the 2004 team would be on that list. Or not. It's hard to come up with a list based entirely on Sagarin. 

[FastpacedO]

12 minutes ago, BTF said:

I maintain that with a healthy Quale Lewis, the 2004 team would be on that list. Or not. It's hard to come up with a list based entirely on Sagarin. 

Possibly. That being said Snider was having a tough time stopping RB Darren Evans (166 yds 1 TD) and QB Dexter Taylor (104 yds 3 TD's). WC only threw 3 passes the entire game (one was a 99 yd TD). Snider still was productive without Lewis, LCJ Martin (123 yds 0 TD) and QB Hayden (107 yds 1 TD threw for 74 and 2 TD's).

Nobody knows what would have happened, Snider played well in that game offensively without Lewis though.

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Possibly. That being said Snider was having a tough time stopping RB Darren Evans (166 yds 1 TD) and QB Dexter Taylor (104 yds 3 TD's). WC only threw 3 passes the entire game (one was a 99 yd TD). Snider still was productive without Lewis, LCJ Martin (123 yds 0 TD) and QB Hayden (107 yds 1 TD threw for 74 and 2 TD's).

Nobody knows what would have happened, Snider played well in that game offensively without Lewis though.

LCJ Martin was good, no one can deny that. But Lewis was a beast. He was scoring a touchdown once every four times he touched the ball before he broke his ankle in Week 9. The 99 yard pass was actually well defended. The Snider kid fell down as he was going up to defend the pass. That was one breaking point for Snider, there were two more. Snider blew up a WC play in the backfield when the DE tried picking up a fumble and taking it to the house. Instead he bobbled it and Evans picked up out of the air and took it in. Very much a fluke play. The other was Snider fumbling a punt at the 50 yard line down 21-14. They would have had great field position to tie the game. Those three plays were game breakers. Two evenly matched teams even without Lewis. 

[temptation]

42 minutes ago, BTF said:

LCJ Martin was good, no one can deny that. But Lewis was a beast. He was scoring a touchdown once every four times he touched the ball before he broke his ankle in Week 9. The 99 yard pass was actually well defended. The Snider kid fell down as he was going up to defend the pass. That was one breaking point for Snider, there were two more. Snider blew up a WC play in the backfield when the DE tried picking up a fumble and taking it to the house. Instead he bobbled it and Evans picked up out of the air and took it in. Very much a fluke play. The other was Snider fumbling a punt at the 50 yard line down 21-14. They would have had great field position to tie the game. Those three plays were game breakers. Two evenly matched teams even without Lewis. 

Man, you guys are putting me to shame on here.

[KmartGiant]

Being an old timer and original on the GID. I remember the 1991 BD team all too well. Temptation said Holman would be a good fullback. DeWayne Hogan was a good fullback at IU and with the Texas Roughnecks. His speed wasn't remotely close to Holman's.  BS all the way. Holman was an anchor on the 1991 4x100 relay team that won state in 42.37. He was strong as an ox and had speed to boot. Had he not made some foolish mistakes at MSU under coach George Perles, his career likely would have led to the NFL. See James Banks and mistakes for players who should have played in the NFL. 

I remember watching BD Kicker Trinity Hines hitting from 70 yards in practice. The national HS record is 68 yards in the winds of Nevada. Dirk Borgognone.

QB Chris Ings would have been a D1 treat if he wasn't short. He had a stellar career at Wabash.

That team was ahead of it's time with speed and conditioning. A young CSCS in Kevin Vanderbush had them way ahead of the rest of the state in those years. I remember when coach D got the call from ESPN Scholastic Sports America while cooking breakfast for his 4 team captains that they were the 1991 national champions. Hasn't been done since. The 2017 BD team had more D1 talent as have many other teams over the years, but none have held the #1 national spot since BD. Speaks volumes of Coach D and the program built. That put Indiana FB on the map and our state keeps improving and holding their own being a small state with only 1 big city. 

 

[Bash Riprock]

2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Who F.W. Snider with 219? I only kid I know that Snider just moved up to 6A.

What amazes me is that Carmel is only 2 games behind CG. Just seems like there have been many wins by CG would have been more separation.

I was just funnin'....Snider is a great program and I think about what Cathedral has done consistently over the years. Incredible! Lots of great programs.

Carmel has been a top program for years, so not surprised by their win totals.  Last couple of years have been tough, but what a history.

[temptation]

1 hour ago, KmartGiant said:

Being an old timer and original on the GID. I remember the 1991 BD team all too well. Temptation said Holman would be a good fullback. DeWayne Hogan was a good fullback at IU and with the Texas Roughnecks. His speed wasn't remotely close to Holman's.  BS all the way. Holman was an anchor on the 1991 4x100 relay team that won state in 42.37. He was strong as an ox and had speed to boot. Had he not made some foolish mistakes at MSU under coach George Perles, his career likely would have led to the NFL. See James Banks and mistakes for players who should have played in the NFL. 

I remember watching BD Kicker Trinity Hines hitting from 70 yards in practice. The national HS record is 68 yards in the winds of Nevada. Dirk Borgognone.

QB Chris Ings would have been a D1 treat if he wasn't short. He had a stellar career at Wabash.

That team was ahead of it's time with speed and conditioning. A young CSCS in Kevin Vanderbush had them way ahead of the rest of the state in those years. I remember when coach D got the call from ESPN Scholastic Sports America while cooking breakfast for his 4 team captains that they were the 1991 national champions. Hasn't been done since. The 2017 BD team had more D1 talent as have many other teams over the years, but none have held the #1 national spot since BD. Speaks volumes of Coach D and the program built. That put Indiana FB on the map and our state keeps improving and holding their own being a small state with only 1 big city. 

 

My bad on Hogan, good call.

:42.37 was a great 4x100 time in the 1990s but wouldn’t even score in the state finals 75% of the time in modern day Hoosier track and field.

BD has broken :42 seconds in the 4x100 over a dozen times since 1991 with football guys more often than not.

The speed of modern day football players, specifically the depth of fast guys has changed the game.

Edited July 13, 2024 by temptation

[KmartGiant]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

My bad on Hogan, good call.

:42.37 was a great 4x100 time in the 1990s but wouldn’t even score in the state finals 75% of the time in modern day Hoosier track and field.

BD has broken :42 seconds in the 4x100 over a dozen times since 1991 with football guys more often than not.

The speed of modern day football players, specifically the depth of fast guys has changed the game.

 

[KmartGiant]

Just now, KmartGiant said:

 

Good fair call Temptation. Respect for sure. Times have definitely changed. At that time in 1991 that was a really good 4x100 relay time. The speed clinics and development of athletes has evolved so much. It'll only get better too. 

[BTF]

17 hours ago, temptation said:

Helluva memory.

Interesting that some of your posts are hidden from my view. Some are very delayed. 

[BTF]

3 hours ago, temptation said:

Man, you guys are putting me to shame on here.

My wife wonders how I can remember a football game from 20 years ago but I can't remember what we did yesterday. 

[hhpatriot04]

On 7/12/2024 at 4:01 PM, Bash Riprock said:

I do see the 6A team with the most victories over that period.....

What's the inspiration for your screen name?

20 hours ago, BTF said:

My wife wonders how I can remember a football game from 20 years ago but I can't remember what we did yesterday. 

I hear you remember things you care about.

[BDGiant93]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:05 AM, temptation said:

Controversial opinion but I’ll take the 2017 BD team…

I can’t take a look at football highlights from any level before the mid 1990’s and say with a straight face those teams could keep up with the strength and speed of today’s athletes.

I’m sure that’ll hurt feelings.

Seconded. Also, the 2001 Ben Davis team doesn't get much talk, but they were fantastic on both sides of the ball.

Edited July 15, 2024 by BDGiant93

[BDGiant93]

Ben Davis's State Championship and/or Legacy Undefeated Teams (For consideration)

State Championship

1987 (12-2) (PF 25.5, PA 7.1 MOV 18.4)

1988 (14-0) (PF 35.5, PA 6.6 MOV 29.1)

1990 (13-1) (PF 36.1, PA 7.8 MOV 28.3)

1991 (14-0) (PF 46.5, PA 8.9 MOV 37.6)

1999 (15-0) (PF 31.2, PA 8.9 MOV 22.3)

2001 (15-0) (PF 43.3, PA 10.1 MOV 33.2)

2002 (12-3) (PF 35.1, PA 11.3 MOV 23.8)

2014 (12-2) (PF 41.9, PA 26.6 MOV 15.3)

2017 (14-0) (PF 47.4, PA 15.1 MOV 32.3)

2023 (13-1) (PF 40.3, PA 18.1 MOV 22.2)

Undefeated

1950 (7-0-1) (PF 16.8, PA 3.4 MOV 13.4) 

Edited July 15, 2024 by BDGiant93

[PDB26]

23 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Undefeated

1950 (7-0-1) (PF 16.8, PA 3.4 MOV 13.4) 

Yeah, but what was the enrollment?

[BDGiant93]

1 hour ago, PDB26 said:

Yeah, but what was the enrollment?

Good question. Ben Davis has always been big, but I'm not sure how many were there then. By the way, Warren Central kept them from being a perfect 8-0 that year.

[BDGiant93]

1 hour ago, PDB26 said:

Yeah, but what was the enrollment?

Google's a heck of a thing! 1,265 in 1950 per the school website.

Edited July 16, 2024 by BDGiant93

[KmartGiant]

16 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Google's a heck of a thing! 1,265 in 1950 per the school website.

I remember reading an article that said BD was the largest "township" HS in America in the 1950's. What does that mean? I an not sure if it means county HS or what. Townships generally just represent an area. Also the 1988 BD team that was 14-0 was also #4 in the final USA today poll and loaded with stars like RB Thomas "Tank" Adams and WR Scott McGowen was a beast of a team. The 2001 team is one of my favorites as they finished #4 too nationally. The Banks botched punt (high snap to him) that resulted in an official 115 yard TD due to him running back to the end zone from the 15 yard line still amazes me. And I'll never forget the 99 regional vs Arlington and Mr. Football Derrick Ellis. 1 second on the clock and 5'4" kicker Damon Fine launched a 56 yard field goal to win it. The fans trampled me pretty good and I lost a shoe under the old home field bleachers. Nothing like walking to your car with 1 shoe lol.