Can Elkhart Dethrone Penn and Become King of the North?

[Guest DT]

The Elkhart programs have improved over the past few seasons while Penn continues to slide slowly backwards.

The new consolidated Elkhart High School will be loaded with talent and with nearly 3000 students will finally give Penn a local opponent of similar size.

With Mishawaka off the Penn schedule, thyat annual NIC matchup between these two, as well as post season tourney competition should open the doors to a new rivalry.

Penn is still the mythical King of northern Indiana football, but there are competitors on the horizon.

The Elkhart Lions just joined that select group chasing the Mighty Kingsmen.

 

 

 

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, DT said:

The Elkhart programs have improved over the past few seasons while Penn continues to slide slowly backwards.

The new consolidated Elkhart High School will be loaded with talent and with nearly 3000 students will finally give Penn a local opponent of similar size.

With Mishawaka off the Penn schedule, thyat annual NIC matchup between these two, as well as post season tourney competition should open the doors to a new rivalry.

Penn is still the mythical King of northern Indiana football, but there are competitors on the horizon.

The Elkhart Lions just joined that select group chasing the Mighty Kingsmen.

 

 

 

I believe Elkhart is going to experience the same problems that Michigan City experienced when Elston and Rogers consolidated.

They are putting the 9th graders at Central and grades 10, 11 and 12 will be at Memorial but the football games will be played at Central's Rice Field.

When Elston and Rogers consolidated in 1995 the put the 9th graders at Elston and grades 10, 11 and 12 at Rogers until they finally put grades 9-12 under one roof at Rogers (MCHS) and the games are played at Ames Field.

They are going to find that having their high school building and their football facility located into two entirely separate sections of the city is a logistical nightmare.

I strongly recommend that most of the teams activities be based out of their high school building at Memorial. 

 

[XStar]

I think Penn is going to be stuck in the same rut they've been in since Geesman retired.  Not sure Elkhart surpasses them but I think maybe they are pretty competitive.  Maybe the most annual competition Penn has seen in quite some time.  

[Guest]

16 hours ago, DT said:

The Elkhart programs have improved over the past few seasons while Penn continues to slide slowly backwards.

The new consolidated Elkhart High School will be loaded with talent and with nearly 3000 students will finally give Penn a local opponent of similar size.

With Mishawaka off the Penn schedule, thyat annual NIC matchup between these two, as well as post season tourney competition should open the doors to a new rivalry.

Penn is still the mythical King of northern Indiana football, but there are competitors on the horizon.

The Elkhart Lions just joined that select group chasing the Mighty Kingsmen.

 

 

 

Nope.  2.5 times the number of students on free and reduced lunch and 700 fewer students.

[BoomBoomMcGee]

I think that Warsaw will continue to build positive momentum towards a very good and stable 6A football program up north. I believe they will give Penn more of a challenge in the near term in the playoffs and possibly Elkhart in the medium to longer term.
Elkhart will have the athletes. its up to the coaches to develop them and create a winning football environment around the program starting in the feeder system / middle schools. I do believe Elkhart chose the right head coach to lead the program going forward. 

[DACNUT]

When you say north, are you dismissing the DAC and Warsaw? Penn has not been the Kings of the north the past two years. Just because they are larger doesn’t automatically make them a football power, especially As they haven’t had a culture of winning anything for multiple decades. They will be larger, but just like the larger schools in the DAC, size isn’t everything!!

[psaboy]

27 minutes ago, DACNUT said:

When you say north, are you dismissing the DAC and Warsaw? Penn has not been the Kings of the north the past two years. Just because they are larger doesn’t automatically make them a football power, especially As they haven’t had a culture of winning anything for multiple decades. They will be larger, but just like the larger schools in the DAC, size isn’t everything!!

I think Homestead and Carroll should also be considered. I would add Snider, but they are likely dropping to 5A next year. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, DACNUT said:

When you say north, are you dismissing the DAC and Warsaw? Penn has not been the Kings of the north the past two years. Just because they are larger doesn’t automatically make them a football power, especially As they haven’t had a culture of winning anything for multiple decades. They will be larger, but just like the larger schools in the DAC, size isn’t everything!!

A bit extreme?

[BTF]

7 hours ago, psaboy said:

I think Homestead and Carroll should also be considered. I would add Snider, but they are likely dropping to 5A next year. 

No faith that the panthers can win Sectional 3 next year? I understand that Homestead and Carroll will have good football teams next year. But Snider is still the benchmark of Northeast Indiana. A sectional championship will keep them in 6a. 

[DACNUT]

21 hours ago, Temptation said:

A bit extreme?

I can go back and check, but I don't recall Elkhart, excluding Concord, being relevant going back to the 90s?

[Guest DT]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, Temptation said:

Nope.  2.5 times the number of students on free and reduced lunch and 700 fewer students.

Penn remains the King of Northern Indiana Football.

 

There are challengers

In no particular order, from west to east :

Merrillville - hitting their stride under Brad Seiss

Valpo - On their best run in 30 years

Elkhart - Big numbers, high ceiling

Michigan City - Can they reload?

Homestead - just getting better

Snider - a blueblood with great tradition, but numbers are a challenge long term

Dwenger - they could be whatever they want to be.  

Warsaw - Curtis has them in the conversation

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, DACNUT said:

I can go back and check, but I don't recall Elkhart, excluding Concord, being relevant going back to the 90s?

Your wording made it seem as if you were insinuating that PENN hadn't won anything in multiple decades, no?

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Penn remains the King of Northern Indiana Football.

 

There are challengers

In no particular order, from west to east :

Merrillville - hitting their stride under Brad Seiss

Valpo - On their best run in 30 years

Elkhart - Big numbers, high ceiling

Michigan City - Can they reload?

Homestead - just getting better

Snider - a blueblood with great tradition, but numbers are a challenge long term

Dwenger - they could be whatever they want to be.  

Warsaw - Curtis has them in the conversation

 

Yes, and I think these teams will take turns and get their shot at "big boy Penn" (and even defeat them) but I do not see a team that is set to permanently take the mantle from the Kingsmen year in and year out. 

Its a simple numbers game.  3800 students + a proud tradition + less than 30 percent free and reduced = success

Edited December 16, 2019 by Guest

[DACNUT]

3 hours ago, Temptation said:

Your wording made it seem as if you were insinuating that PENN hadn't won anything in multiple decades, no?

Yes, and I think these teams will take turns and get their shot at "big boy Penn" (and even defeat them) but I do not see a team that is set to permanently take the mantle from the Kingsmen year in and year out. 

Its a simple numbers game.  3800 students + a proud tradition + less than 30 percent free and reduced = success

No I was referring to Elkhart high school football only.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, DACNUT said:

No I was referring to Elkhart high school football only.

Gotcha.

Back to the original topic, I just don’t see it on a regular basis which would fit the definition of “dethroning.”

[Guest DT]

59 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Gotcha.

Back to the original topic, I just don’t see it on a regular basis which would fit the definition of “dethroning.”

Im not sure there is that much of a difference between 3000 students and 4000 students.  You still are getting a huge turnout of student athletes and there are sure to be some players when you are hitting those numbers.

I would also expect a little more hunger out of those Elkhart kids, who are likely a notch or two down on the socio economic ladder.

 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, DT said:

Im not sure there is that much of a difference between 3000 students and 4000 students.  You still are getting a huge turnout of student athletes and there are sure to be some players when you are hitting those numbers.

I would also expect a little more hunger out of those Elkhart kids, who are likely a notch or two down on the socio economic ladder.

 

Once again, over 700 less kids AND a higher f/r/l population by 2.5 times will still be a steep hill to climb year in and year out.

Folks on here have disagreed with me on this issue but it is much more than an enrollment issue in high school athletics.

[Guest]

I stand corrected.  My figures were off.  I thought Penn was closer to 3700/3800 for some reason.  They are just over 3300 if the most recent figures are correct.

Elkhart was off the other way as I had them around 3000 when it appears they should be around 3200.

Similar enrollments but I’ll stick to my find on the f/r/l differential to be a significant factor in Elkhart consistently competing with Penn.

Could be proven wrong of course.

[psaboy]

5 hours ago, Temptation said:

Your wording made it seem as if you were insinuating that PENN hadn't won anything in multiple decades, no?

Yes, and I think these teams will take turns and get their shot at "big boy Penn" (and even defeat them) but I do not see a team that is set to permanently take the mantle from the Kingsmen year in and year out. 

Its a simple numbers game.  3800 students + a proud tradition + less than 30 percent free and reduced = success

I really don't know what the connection is on good athlete and free lunches. Are you saying schools that have low number of free lunches equals better athletes?

[Guest]

I know many folks have Said Center Grove is the exception (and i don’t necessarily disagree) but looking at schools in 6A of similar enrollment that have the same differential between Elkhart and Penn in terms of free and reduced lunch would be Center Grove and Portage.

Elkhart - 3200 students @ 60% F/R

Penn - 3300 students @ 21% F/R

Center Grove - 2500 students @19% F/R

Portage - 2400 students @ 50% F/R

Obviously there are more things that play but I believe these are the top two MEASURABLE factors that determine a program’s potential long term success

6 minutes ago, psaboy said:

I really don't know what the connection is on good athlete and free lunches. Are you saying schools that have low number of free lunches equals better athletes?

This has been discussed in detail in other topics on here.  F/R/L is a statistic that cannot be ignored for reasons I’m not going to get into explaining once again.

[psaboy]

20 hours ago, BTF said:

No faith that the panthers can win Sectional 3 next year? I understand that Homestead and Carroll will have good football teams next year. But Snider is still the benchmark of Northeast Indiana. A sectional championship will keep them in 6a. 

I'm thinking Snider will not be favored to win sectional next year. Homestead will not be as good as they were this year, but think Carroll will be favored. Becker the QB will give Snider's undisciplined D fits again in 2020. So yes, I'm thinking Snider drops in 2020, but will be back in 6A in 2022. I think they will be in a forever cycle during this success factor era. 

[Guest]

Speaking of which, I’m now looking at two sets of numbers...

The DOE stats show Penn around 3800 students while the most recent IHSAA enrollment figures are just above 3300...which is it?

[psaboy]

6 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I know many folks have Said Center Grove is the exception (and i don’t necessarily disagree) but looking at schools in 6A of similar enrollment that have the same differential between Elkhart and Penn in terms of free and reduced lunch would be Center Grove and Portage.

Elkhart - 3200 students @ 60% F/R

Penn - 3300 students @ 21% F/R

Center Grove - 2500 students @19% F/R

Portage - 2400 students @ 50% F/R

Obviously there are more things that play but I believe these are the top two MEASURABLE factors that determine a program’s potential long term success

This has been discussed in detail in other topics on here.  F/R/L is a statistic that cannot be ignored for reasons I’m not going to get into explaining once again.

Got ya 

[BTF]

1 minute ago, psaboy said:

Got ya 

In a nutshell, a kid on f/r/l typically has less access to resources than a kid from a wealthier family has.........training, camps, nutrition, etc. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

In a nutshell, a kid on f/r/l typically has less access to resources than a kid from a wealthier family has.........training, camps, nutrition, etc. 

Deeper than that, but solid start.

[BTF]

Elkhart could be king of the north if the right coach comes along. Kevin Wright + Elkhart = appearance at state.