One Year In - Did Mishawaka make the right move in jump to NLC?

[Guest DT]

I think it goes without saying, the vast majority of forum readers were shocked when news broke that Mishawaka was leaving the NIC for the NLC.

The Cavemen, original founders of the Northern Indiana Conference in 1927, left their comfort zone and joined forces with the Northern Lakes Conference and set a new course competitively for the future.

So after all the dust has settled, a football season is in the books, and new rivaries developing and old ones disappearing into history, what is the overall assessment of Mishawaka's dramatic move?

A few thoughts from my perspective:

1. The emergence of Elkhart completely pushed the Mishawaka story off the front page.  The NIC still has its issues, but Elkhart is no longer a problem, it is a huge point of strength.

2. Marian, like Elkhart, is becoming a beast in The NIC.

3. While the much anticipated "Bart Bowl" between Mishawaka and Warsaw has materialized, not much more in budding rivalries has surfaced as the conference as a whole is going thru a deep down cycle.

For those on the inside or close to the program, what is the Caveman point of view on this historic conference shift for MHS?

Any thoughts on travel?

How is the competitive environment in The NLC vs The NIC?

Are NLC communities supporting their teams as you anticipated?

Is there a yearning for past NIC relationships and rivalries?

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by DT

[NLCTigerFan07]

Unfortunately, there were not many Cavemen posters in the NLC thread this year, so I am not sure who is even around to give you some answers to your questions. From my point of view, I would guess Mishawaka was mostly satisfied with the move, but I think it is hard to judge/answer your questions after 1 season, especially this season of COVID. Maybe revisit after the 2022 season and see where things stand.

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Unfortunately, there were not many Cavemen posters in the NLC thread this year, so I am not sure who is even around to give you some answers to your questions. From my point of view, I would guess Mishawaka was mostly satisfied with the move, but I think it is hard to judge/answer your questions after 1 season, especially this season of COVID. Maybe revisit after the 2022 season and see where things stand.

I thunk Elkharts success has made it more likely that EHS and Penn migh move west to The DAC.  Mishawaka made a smart preemptive move by jumping to the NLC. Its a very good fit.   Just a shame that some of the programs are just a shadow of their former selves.  

[psaboy]

I think good move overall. I live in the greater South Bend/Mishawaka/Elkhart Metro Tri-Plex area for past 25 years and have seen the NIC decline over the years, mostly SB schools. I see the better fit for size of Mishawaka in the NLC, JMO. Agree with NLC Tiger, this year you can't judge, need to give it 2-3 more years. 

[XStar]

The practical side of me thinks it's a good move where they seem to fit better.  The other part of me thinks not being in the same conference as Penn and Mishawaka Marian is a shame.  I don't think they have any such rivalries in the NLC.  Perhaps they will come with time but it's harder to create that type of rivalry with schools that are 30+ minute drives away rather than 5-10 minutes.  

[NLCTigerFan07]

7 hours ago, XStar said:

The practical side of me thinks it's a good move where they seem to fit better.  The other part of me thinks not being in the same conference as Penn and Mishawaka Marian is a shame.  I don't think they have any such rivalries in the NLC.  Perhaps they will come with time but it's harder to create that type of rivalry with schools that are 30+ minute drives away rather than 5-10 minutes.  

Over time, I could really see them developing football rilvaries with Concord, Plymouth and NorthWood. Obviously as long as Bart is at Warsaw there will be some pull there as well.

With Concord you have a team that's about 10 miles or so away that will also more likely than not be in your sectional every year. Opportunities for multiple matchups a season.

With Plymouth and NorthWood, you have two programs (along with Concord) that have been the class of the conference for most of the last two decades. As well, two programs that are always known to play physical football with small communities that really support their football team (as well as all athletics).

I could see those three schools really becoming "rivalries" for Cavemen over the next decade or so.

For what it's worth, Plymouth is about a 30 minute drive from Warsaw, and I have always hated them 😉 😁

 

[PDB26]

I think the higher-risk choice would have been to stay in the NIC. Good on Mishawaka for making a choice they feel most benefits their school and athletics programs. Too much potential for instability in the NIC. 

[gindie]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:10 PM, DT said:

I thunk Elkharts success has made it more likely that EHS and Penn migh move west to The DAC.  

It would be good competition-wise, but that's a lot of long distance travel on school nights in potentially bad weather.

[PDB26]

13 hours ago, gindie said:

that's a lot of long distance travel on school nights in potentially bad weather

I think thought this was a fallacious argument in '02 - can't say for certain because I don't remember what every sport did for travel - and I definitely do now. Here are the 2019-2020 away schedules for Penn sports: 

Boys Basketball: LaPorte, Crown Point, Clay, Michigan City, Adams, Valpo, New Prairie, Northridge, St. Joe, Bremen, Marian. Some games were Saturdays and others were the school night variety.

Girls basketball away: Oregon-Davis, Bremen, Lake Central, Warsaw, Lafayette Jeff, Marian, Clay, Merrillville, New Castle, Carmel, Adams, Ft. Wayne South, St. Joe.

Baseball away: Noblesville, Lakeshore (MI), Bremen, Marian, Lake Central, Clay, New Prairie, Adams, Plymouth, St Joe (MI), Warsaw.

Softball away: North Miami, Carroll, Portage, Munster, Riley, Bremen, Center Grove at Northwestern?, Elkhart Central, Carmel, Concord, Crown Point, Washington, John Glenn, Jimtown.

Boys soccer: Northridge, Munster, Adams, Riley, Zionsville, Elkhart Central.

Girls soccer: Homestead, Carroll, Indian Invite at Newton Park (Lakeville), Zionsville, St. Joe, Newton Park, Warsaw, Ft. Wayne Canterbury, Marian, Noblesville, Guerin Catholic.

Volleyball is the only team sport that doesn't seem to do much travel.

The "individual" sports are slightly more affected by a switch, but here's boys tennis away: Warsaw, Mishawaka, Elkhart Central, Culver, St. Joe, Concord, Carroll, Homestead.

Girls tennis away: Mishawaka, East Noble, Homestead, Elkhart Central, Valpo, St. Joe, Avon, Culver.

Boys/Girls swim away: Northridge, Munster, Washington, Lake Central, Bremen, Concord, Mishawaka.

Wrestling and track are most affected. Not really sure about Golf, but I think they can probably handle it.

I don't think the football program is down, but it needs to compete weekly against 5A and 6A programs if the goal is to be competitive year in and year out with Indy. The only way to do that is to join the DAC or go independent in football. 

[XStar]

41 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

I don't think the football program is down, but it needs to compete weekly against 5A and 6A programs if the goal is to be competitive year in and year out with Indy. The only way to do that is to join the DAC or go independent in football. 

You don't think the football program is down?!?  

Penn's schedule isn't much different than it was in the mid-90's when they won state 3 times in a row.  They don't need to go independent to compete against the top Indy programs.  They need to get better.  They've lost to Valpo 3 straight times.  They haven't beaten Mishawaka Marian since 2012.  They dropped a very competitive series against Mishawaka.  They are winless against the new Elkhart High School.  They were beaten handily by Bart Curtis and Warsaw in 2019, and then they failed to even advance that far in 2020.  

I just don't think Penn, in the community or the administration, cares much anymore about being a state power in football.  They are big enough where they will still be good every so often.  Yeoman has taken them to state 4 times in 17 years I think.  But I never thought I'd see the day where they would go 5-5.  

[PDB26]

2 hours ago, XStar said:

You don't think the football program is down?!?

Not really, no. I think it's fair to say that they have underperformed over the past two seasons, but they were in the finals in 2015 and 2017.

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They've lost to Valpo 3 straight times.

Valpo just finished off their best three year run since Renn was lining up in the gun rifling it around the Region to Samardzija and company. Hate to lose three in a row to anyone, but that series hasn't always been one sided or anything.

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They haven't beaten Mishawaka Marian since 2012.

Wrong. Marian got their first win against Penn since 1973 this fall. Not a lot of games in that series, and even fewer competitive ones. Also, I don't know if I've ever see Penn take the ball from their opponent five times and lose. Congrats to Marian for overcoming that and getting the win, but I'm not staking a whole lot on that result.

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They dropped a very competitive series against Mishawaka.

Sadly, yes. The series had gotten less one-sided since Mishawaka's breakthrough in 2009. Even more reason to ditch the NIC at this point.

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They are winless against the new Elkhart High School.

0-1 is not a position the Kingsmen are used to occupying. Happy for the Elkhart merger and the coaching staff there. For both the kids in that program and the competition.

2 hours ago, XStar said:

This is at least partly true, but the same cannot be said at all for the teams in MIC or the HCC in that regard. 

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They need to get better.

Agreed. That's why they need to unhitch themselves from the NIC, preferably with Elkhart in tow. 

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They were beaten handily by Bart Curtis and Warsaw in 2019

That offense has given Penn fits at times over the past 20 years, certainly. 

2 hours ago, XStar said:

They don't need to go independent to compete against the top Indy programs.

I don't think enough emphasis is put on the competitive advantage the MIC programs have gained through their association with each other. I think there's a reason that those schools have widened the gap between themselves and the rest of the state. It's not just because they have good athletes, that helps, but that the association between those schools has created layers of competition throughout those programs. Not just at the varsity level. I don't know if people realize how trivial a lot of the reps Penn kids, through no fault of their own,get in freshman and JV ball are. 

That's why I'm a proponent of them getting into the DAC. If a school goes 264-19 in a conference, they aren't getting much help at getting better. 

[XStar]

1 hour ago, PDB26 said:

Wrong. Marian got their first win against Penn since 1973 this fall. Not a lot of games in that series, and even fewer competitive ones. Also, I don't know if I've ever see Penn take the ball from their opponent five times and lose. Congrats to Marian for overcoming that and getting the win, but I'm not staking a whole lot on that result.

What you say is true.  But that doesn't make what I said untrue.  The last time Penn beat Marian was 2012.  The conditions of the 2020 loss highlight my point though.  Penn never used to lose games like that.  Especially against smaller, local opponents.  For decades, they were rarely challenged locally and I think went 30-some years without losing an NIC game.  That is clearly not the case right now. 

And your point about going to state in 2017 is also true, but we are 3 years past that and they have not won as much as a sectional in those 3 years.  The last time they went three years without winning a sectional was the early 90's.  I don't know how you can not consider that "down" for Penn's program.  It's not just the Indy MIC teams they are losing to.  It's local and regional teams now.  I think they need to re-establish themselves as THE power in the northern part of the state before worrying about beating Carmel and Center Grove.   

[PDB26]

15 hours ago, XStar said:

But that doesn't make what I said untrue.  The last time Penn beat Marian was 2012.

It's not untrue, but they also didn't play each other between 2012 and 2020. As far as evidence goes, that's evidence of nothing. However, I have to say that the loss this year has bothered me most. It's a game you should win but don't deserve to if you can't capitalize on four extra possessions.

On a related note, I've seen few games that I felt Penn deserved to win, but, for whatever the reason, did not. The semi-state against Carmel in 2013 is one that comes to mind. I would have been very interested in seeing that team in the finals against WC.

I also want to mention that the boys from Mishawaka were always the toughest bunch on our schedule. Those teams and the guys on them were always warriors and they never quit playing.(I still think Mishawaka made the right choice to leave the conference. Which is where this all started anyway.)

I'm just not sure the evidence to suggest a true decline is there,  Losing close games to Elkhart and Valpo, not a moral victory, shouldn't be taken as indicators of decline. Elkhart should be and was expected to be competitive with Penn from the start. That school would have been competitive in 1990, 2000, 2010, 2020. If they had existed there'd be a few more blemishes on Penn's conference record. It also would have been hugely helpful for the Penn program to have that school on the schedule. Valpo has been competitive with Penn for the most part even if that series is decidedly in Penn's favor still. 

Not winning a sectional for three years is not the expectation on Bittersweet Rd. The 2018 loss doesn't seem as bad since Valpo went to the semi-state at least. The other two don't look so great.

Maybe, I'm trying to avoid banging on the staff or players. Maybe that makes me averse to throwing around the "down" term because of the connotation. I'm certainly not avoiding the term out of pride. If we're in the same position next year, then I'd be able to say that the program is definitively down.  

20 hours ago, XStar said:

Penn's schedule isn't much different than it was in the mid-90's when they won state 3 times in a row

I responded to this above, but I guess I screwed it up somehow and deleted the quote. Penn's schedule is similar to those times. The same cannot be said for the teams playing in the MIC (HCC too as the donut counties grow). There are lots of important factors that go into building successful programs. I think the most profound and unique factor that the MIC has access to is the level of competition within their conference. 

I think this is important, and it doesn't matter if the goal is to compete with those teams or to be the dominant team in the north. Competition within a conference and at the freshman and JV levels matters for development. It matters for the evolution of a program.

19 hours ago, XStar said:

I just don't think Penn, in the community or the administration, cares much anymore about being a state power in football.

I agree with you on this point with the caveat that it's either indifference or complacency.

It's possible that there's complacency about what it takes to help a program succeed from the administration and community as opposed to indifference, but it does seem that there is not the same fervor for success among those two groups. I think continued participation in the NIC, especially with the departure of Mishawaka, is pretty good evidence of complacency or indifference though. 

[NLCTigerFan07]

22 hours ago, XStar said:

They haven't beaten Mishawaka Marian since 2012.

18 hours ago, XStar said:

What you say is true.  But that doesn't make what I said untrue.  The last time Penn beat Marian was 2012.

1 hour ago, PDB26 said:

It's not untrue, but they also didn't play each other between 2012 and 2020.

 

Bingo @PDB26 !!! What a ridiculous argument/point to be made. That's like saying Ohio State hasn't beaten Purde since 2013... when they've only played once (2018) in those 7 seasons. Terrible take by @XStar here. Other points are pretty good.

 

However - remember the topic here is about Mishawaka joining the NLC, not Penn's potential decline as a state power. Create another thread for that, I'm sure you'll get plenty of people from all over the state weighing in there.

 

[XStar]

9 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

 

Bingo @PDB26 !!! What a ridiculous argument/point to be made. That's like saying Ohio State hasn't beaten Purde since 2013... when they've only played once (2018) in those 7 seasons. Terrible take by @XStar here. Other points are pretty good.

 

However - remember the topic here is about Mishawaka joining the NLC, not Penn's potential decline as a state power. Create another thread for that, I'm sure you'll get plenty of people from all over the state weighing in there.

 

The truth is a terrible take?  Uh.....ok.....

[NLCTigerFan07]

12 hours ago, XStar said:

The truth is a terrible take?  Uh.....ok.....

In this instance? Absolutely. Just because it is the truth, does not make it any sort of measuring stick. If they have not played since that time, it literally does nothing to strengthen your argument. Thus, a terrible take.

It's literally like saying Fort Wayne Snider hasn't beaten Warsaw since 2009. It doesn't mean anything because they haven't played since then. It's not like Warsaw has stopped Snider from beating them in that time.

[XStar]

2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

In this instance? Absolutely. Just because it is the truth, does not make it any sort of measuring stick. If they have not played since that time, it literally does nothing to strengthen your argument. Thus, a terrible take.

It's literally like saying Fort Wayne Snider hasn't beaten Warsaw since 2009. It doesn't mean anything because they haven't played since then. It's not like Warsaw has stopped Snider from beating them in that time.

I never said that Marian beat Penn x number of times since 2012.  You're assuming something about what I said and I can't make your assumptions for you.  

[NLCTigerFan07]

1 hour ago, XStar said:

I never said that Marian beat Penn x number of times since 2012.  You're assuming something about what I said and I can't make your assumptions for you.  

LOL yes, but you're trying to insuiate that SINCE Penn has not beaten Marian since 2012, that means they are down. See your OWN WORDS below:

On 12/14/2020 at 1:36 PM, XStar said:

You don't think the football program is down?!?  

Penn's schedule isn't much different than it was in the mid-90's when they won state 3 times in a row.  They don't need to go independent to compete against the top Indy programs.  They need to get better.  They've lost to Valpo 3 straight times.  They haven't beaten Mishawaka Marian since 2012.  They dropped a very competitive series against Mishawaka.  They are winless against the new Elkhart High School.  They were beaten handily by Bart Curtis and Warsaw in 2019, and then they failed to even advance that far in 2020.  

Go ahead and take this MASSIVE L my friend. 

[Gipper]

If Mishawaka is happier there, good for them.

[XStar]

2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

LOL yes, but you're trying to insuiate that SINCE Penn has not beaten Marian since 2012, that means they are down. See your OWN WORDS below:

Go ahead and take this MASSIVE L my friend. 

Again, fact are facts.  I'm sorry you do not like facts.  If there's an L to take, it's yours in comprehension.  Penn is down and the last 3 years demonstrate that.  They are winless against Marian over that period of time.  The fact that they lost to Marian once doesn't necessarily mean they are down by itself.  But when you look at it with all the other things I presented (you copied the whole paragraph btw) and compare it to their program history, I think any rationale person would conclude that they are down.  I doubt many Penn fans and/or former players would debate that.  I don't think current players or coaches would tell you that the results of the past three years are up their standards.  But you keep fighting that battle.  You may even convince yourself.  

[NLCTigerFan07]

I am not disagreeing with you that Penn is down. I'm pointing out your massive flaw in trying to use the "fact" that they haven't beat Marian since 2012 as part of your reasoning for claiming they are down. You are truly a troll.

[Crusty]

As a long time Cavemen football fan (40 plus years) except for the driving I like the move. Overall the games have been more competitive and I was excited to see my first game at NW.  I think/hope you will see an ever better version of Cavemen football next season. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Crusty

[XStar]

2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I am not disagreeing with you that Penn is down. I'm pointing out your massive flaw in trying to use the "fact" that they haven't beat Marian since 2012 as part of your reasoning for claiming they are down. You are truly a troll.

LOL.  So you quote the word "fact" as if to imply that it's not or, if you quote it, it makes it less of a fact.  I'm going to make this as simple as I possibly can.  If you can name a year from 2013 to 2020 where Penn defeated Marian in football, then it is not a fact.  If you can't, then it is a fact.  No amount of your twisting, turning, rationalizing, crying, or whining will change it.  

If you think I am a troll, feel free to block me or whatever you can do on here.  I clearly have nothing to gain by reading what you post so I won't miss anything.  

[Crusty]

Fact- Penn vs Marian has nothing to do with this thread. 

[NLCTigerFan07]

12 hours ago, XStar said:

LOL.  So you quote the word "fact" as if to imply that it's not or, if you quote it, it makes it less of a fact.  I'm going to make this as simple as I possibly can.  If you can name a year from 2013 to 2020 where Penn defeated Marian in football, then it is not a fact.  If you can't, then it is a fact.  No amount of your twisting, turning, rationalizing, crying, or whining will change it.  

If you think I am a troll, feel free to block me or whatever you can do on here.  I clearly have nothing to gain by reading what you post so I won't miss anything.