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Hoosier High School Football Class 6A Pre Season "Dandy Dozen"


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Just now, temptation said:

With his son at QB, lol.  Definitely didn’t “luck” into that one.

Was Nick still in School?  I thought he was on the WC staff.  Or does he have another son?

 

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12 hours ago, temptation said:

Just don’t see it with Simmons.  Sorry.  

Great guy.

Find me a game on BD’s schedule where you can confidently say they have the advantage in coaching.

Talent?  Sure.  But COACHING?

People used to say the same thing about Mike Kirschner...until he won two State Championships. It may not be evident to you, but Jason is a good football coach. I'm not going to throw other coaches under the bus so that we can play hot take Thursday.

20 hours ago, DT said:

Several coaches have made the comment, "unless youre Center Grove, you have to play The MIC twice to win state in 6A."  

Well, they'll likely see a MIC team in Regional and Semi-State too. 

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19 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I've maintained for awhile that CG's biggest hurdle in the South is Ben Davis. Young team last year that only got better. 

CG and BD both have advantages in that they don't have high hurdles to climb to win Sectional. We'll see how the year develops.

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10 hours ago, Staxawax said:

Brownsburg. Hart is still suspect in my book.

He's won everywhere he's been. He's led two different programs to State Championships and has a career record of 25-3 in MIC play when he coached in the league. 

Edited by BDGiant93
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15 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

People used to say the same thing about Mike Kirschner...until he won two State Championships. It may not be evident to you, but Jason is a good football coach. I'm not going to throw other coaches under the bus so that we can play hot take Thursday.

Well, they'll likely see a MIC team in Regional and Semi-State too. 

I don’t understand what it has to do with throwing other coaches under the bus.  Obviously these guys are all “good coaches” as their administration have hired them to lead their programs.  Why is it so controversial to have a real conversation?


I’m not saying Simmons is not a “good coach” but where would he fall within the MIC/central Indy if your favorite team were drafting a coach?

The resumes of Kirschner, Moore and O’Shea and Hebert blow him away as do those of his two Hendricks County rivals.

It’s still too soon to make broad judgments as he still has time and I firmly believe you can wipe away 2020 but he’d better start winning soon.  .500 seasons will never cut it (nor should they) at BD.

Edited by temptation
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Hell, taking it a step further, BD is 18-18 in three years with Simmons and LN (once the annual conference bottom feeder) is 14-18 in that same time frame.

The four win difference lies in the fact that LN has had to go through the sectional 7 gauntlet while BD coasted through sectional 6 the past two seasons.

 

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17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Hell, taking it a step further, BD is 18-18 in three years with Simmons and LN (once the annual conference bottom feeder) is 14-18 in that same time frame.

The four win difference lies in the fact that LN has had to go through the sectional 7 gauntlet while BD coasted through sectional 6 the past two seasons.

 

LN also has had generational type talent these last few years and still has a losing record against BD in said time frame. Simmons inherited a BD program the year after going 14-0 ending as one of the states all time best teams that lost an absolute ton to graduation. Simmons has had some injury and youth situations early on. As we all know its cyclical for every program.

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Hell, taking it a step further, BD is 18-18 in three years with Simmons and LN (once the annual conference bottom feeder) is 14-18 in that same time frame.

The four win difference lies in the fact that LN has had to go through the sectional 7 gauntlet while BD coasted through sectional 6 the past two seasons.

 

Established coaches have learned to stay away from the BD job.  Its a lose lose proposition for most.

If you win - you are simply doing your job.  If you lose, you will be replaced. 

Coach Dullaghan set a Vince Lombardi-Knute Rockne type coaching bar for the program.  No one will ever match up in the eyes of BD followers until this entire generation has died off.  

Allen, Kirschner and Simmons were all assistants or head coaches at much lower level programs when they took over at BD.  

It will be interesting to see what happens next time the job opens.  Will some of Indiana's hottest young coaches (Shane Fry, Pat Shanley, Nick Hart, ) or some of its most decorated veteran coaches like Jake Gilbert, Kyle Ralph or one of the Peebles or the Blesses consider taking on the challenge?

I think the job is somewhat tainted by all of the off the field challenges a coach has to deal with at BD these days.  Coach K said it himself trhat he was like a father to many of the Giant players.  Its enough to run a football program in a mega school like BD.  When you have to be a surrogate father to 75 boys on top of your football duties, even Superman would have difficulty with that challenge.

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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

LN also has had generational type talent these last few years and still has a losing record against BD in said time frame. Simmons inherited a BD program the year after going 14-0 ending as one of the states all time best teams that lost an absolute ton to graduation. Simmons has had some injury and youth situations early on. As we all know its cyclical for every program.

With 2000 fewer students, I might add.

BD, along with Carmel and Warren, should never fall into the “its cyclical” argument with the pure numbers and resources they have available.

A .500 season 1-2 times per decade?  Maybe.

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16 minutes ago, temptation said:

With 2000 fewer students, I might add.

BD, along with Carmel and Warren, should never fall into the “its cyclical” argument with the pure numbers and resources they have available.

A .500 season 1-2 times per decade?  Maybe.

What about Penn, North Central, Pike, Lake Central?

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29 minutes ago, temptation said:

I don’t understand what it has to do with throwing other coaches under the bus.  Obviously these guys are all “good coaches” as their administration have hired them to lead their programs.  Why is it so controversial to have a real conversation?


I’m not saying Simmons is not a “good coach” but where would he fall within the MIC/central Indy if your favorite team were drafting a coach?

The resumes of Kirschner, Moore and O’Shea and Hebert blow him away as do those of his two Hendricks County rivals.

It’s still too soon to make broad judgments as he still has time and I firmly believe you can wipe away 2020 but he’d better start winning soon.  .500 seasons will never cut it (nor should they) at BD.

Why would I start naming other programs? If I say well, BD has the advantage in coaching vs. X Team. Then that's a subjective judgement. I'm not familiar with what goes on exactly at all the other programs in the MIC. I'm not 100 percent sure what, for example, LC is fighting right now. You want to start a tit-for-tat, hot take back-and-forth that would force me to start throwing other programs under the bus, and I refuse to do it. Why make our guy look better by trashing someone else? 

All I know is that the last two years the Giants were left for dead, and they ended up in the Semi-State pulling upsets both years to do it. In 2019, they were Co-MIC Champs. I've got nothing else to say about that. You can have your opinions, but I'm not going to participate in your exercise.

Edited by BDGiant93
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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What about Penn, North Central, Pike, Lake Central?

Penn’s enrollment advantage over their northern Indiana counterparts speaks for itself.  Other northern Indiana programs are finally catching up as they have invested in their programs.

North Central has always been a basketball first powerhouse as has Pike.  NC is upgrading their facilities and went all in with the hire of O’Shea and last year was just a speed bump.  They’ll continue to improve.

Pike had the right guy in Moyers and made a state finals appearance but that was derailed when adults got in the way.

Dont know enough about Lake Central’s situation to make a statement.

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13 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Why would I start naming other programs? If I say well, BD has the advantage in coaching vs. X Team. Then that's a subjective judgement. I'm not familiar with what goes on exactly at all the other programs in the MIC. I'm not 100 percent sure what, for example, LC is fighting right now. You want to start a tit-for-tat, hot take back-and-forth that would force me to start throwing other programs under the bus, and I refuse to do it. Why make our guy look better by trashing someone else? 

All I know is that the last two years the Giants were left for dead, and they ended up in the Semi-State pulling upsets both years to do it. In 2019, they were Co-MIC Champs. I've got nothing else to say about that. You can have your opinions, but I'm not going to participate in your exercise.

Just don’t get why you are so insecure.  This is a message board and it is the offseason so this is a great topic for debate.  I’m not sure why folks get so sensitive.  

There is a classy way to compare programs and coaches without “trashing” anyone and you’re smart enough to do it.  

You watch the games, see the coaching adjustments that are made and speak to the coaches involved on a regular basis.  What is so hard about comparing coaches and programs that you see week in and week out?

Edited by temptation
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19 minutes ago, temptation said:

Penn’s enrollment advantage over their northern Indiana counterparts speaks for itself.  Other northern Indiana programs are finally catching up as they have invested in their programs.

North Central has always been a basketball first powerhouse as has Pike.  NC is upgrading their facilities and went all in with the hire of O’Shea and last year was just a speed bump.  They’ll continue to improve.

Pike had the right guy in Moyers and made a state finals appearance but that was derailed when adults got in the way.

Dont know enough about Lake Central’s situation to make a statement.

So culture and coaching does play a big part 🙂 ? Thanks, just wanted to hear you say it. 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So culture and coaching does play a big part 🙂 ? Thanks, just wanted to hear you say it. 

Sure it does.  Never debated that but long term success is determined by an athletic department’s commitment to a program.

if you notice, very rarely are schools that do not have a large enrollment advantage (the big three) dominant in both football and basketball at the same time.

 

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5 hours ago, temptation said:

Can’t deny that he has underachieved (especially in the post season) at Brownsburg but also cannot ignore his successes.

You don’t “luck” into those kind of numbers.

Coach Hart is a really good coach...cannot deny.

Had some really loaded Warren Central Teams during his 4 years 2008-11.  Won a state title 2009, but wasn't easy with sectional win over Franklin Central 14-13, regional champ Brownsburg 14-6, and a state title over Carmel 42-36 in 2OT.  The fact does remain that regardless of strong regular seasons, Hart won 2 sectionals, 1 regional, 1 semi-state and 1 state at WC during his tenure with very talented teams.

For example, his 2010 WC team was LOADED.  That team included Nick Temple (Cincy), Deionte Buckley (Cincy), Sheldon Day (ND & NFL), Kiaro Holts (UNC), Kris Harley (VT), Deyshawn Bond (Cincy & NFL), Tim Kimbrough (UGA), and Eric Robinson-Berry (WKU).  They were soundly thrashed in the first game of the sectional by Lawrence Central 35-14.  LC was a state runner-up that season, but still a ton of talent to go down in that fashion.

Very good absolutely...lock for Indiana HOF?....I guess it depends on the value of post season.

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53 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Coach Hart is a really good coach...cannot deny.

Had some really loaded Warren Central Teams during his 4 years 2008-11.  Won a state title 2009, but wasn't easy with sectional win over Franklin Central 14-13, regional champ Brownsburg 14-6, and a state title over Carmel 42-36 in 2OT.  The fact does remain that regardless of strong regular seasons, Hart won 2 sectionals, 1 regional, 1 semi-state and 1 state at WC during his tenure with very talented teams.

For example, his 2010 WC team was LOADED.  That team included Nick Temple (Cincy), Deionte Buckley (Cincy), Sheldon Day (ND & NFL), Kiaro Holts (UNC), Kris Harley (VT), Deyshawn Bond (Cincy & NFL), Tim Kimbrough (UGA), and Eric Robinson-Berry (WKU).  They were soundly thrashed in the first game of the sectional by Lawrence Central 35-14.  LC was a state runner-up that season, but still a ton of talent to go down in that fashion.

Very good absolutely...lock for Indiana HOF?....I guess it depends on the value of post season.

I guess it also depends if you are a glass half full or glass half empty kind of guy.  On one side, your post insinuates that he walked into loaded teams and still barely got his state title at Warren.

Another way of looking at it is that he developed and cultivated that talent you speak of and put his players in a position late to win close games.

I guess I can see both sides.

(And FWIW, the call at the end of regulation at the end of that state title win remains one of the worst I’ve seen personally at any level.)

Edited by temptation
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16 hours ago, temptation said:

I guess it also depends if you are a glass half full or glass half empty kind of guy.  On one side, your post insinuates that he walked into loaded teams and still barely got his state title at Warren.

Another way of looking at it is that he developed and cultivated that talent you speak of and put his players in a position late to win close games.

I guess I can see both sides.

(And FWIW, the call at the end of regulation at the end of that state title win remains one of the worst I’ve seen personally at any level.)

No insinuation or insult of a coach intended.  Stating fact in terms of post season results with talented  rosters at WC.  Nothing more.  I personally saw those teams play repeatedly, they were talented, and they were very good...better it would seem in the regular season.  His lone championship at Warren didn't come easy, but nothing was said about barely.  Those are your words.

Really has nothing to do with how I view a glass with liquid in it.

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36 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

No insinuation or insult of a coach intended.  Stating fact in terms of post season results with talented  rosters at WC.  Nothing more.  I personally saw those teams play repeatedly, they were talented, and they were very good...better it would seem in the regular season.  His lone championship at Warren didn't come easy, but nothing was said about barely.  Those are your words.

Really has nothing to do with how I view a glass with liquid in it.

Gotcha.

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