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Sudden Shift by 8/11 Players


Esso Ayche
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Team A has 1/10 at B40 yard line. A is in a legal wing-t type of formation or similar, but typically runs a spread variation 99% of the time. Q calls "set" and down linemen go into three point stance for approximately one second. Suddenly, and in unison, all of A team except center, Q, and RB break hard toward opposite sidelines, drawing the DE across. Call on the field was offside on the D, now 1/5. 

I contend it would be a false start, as it was set up to suddenly and deliberately simulate action across then entire line to draw the defense across.

Call?

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4 hours ago, Esso Ayche said:

Team A has 1/10 at B40 yard line. A is in a legal wing-t type of formation or similar, but typically runs a spread variation 99% of the time. Q calls "set" and down linemen go into three point stance for approximately one second. Suddenly, and in unison, all of A team except center, Q, and RB break hard toward opposite sidelines, drawing the DE across. Call on the field was offside on the D, now 1/5. 

I contend it would be a false start, as it was set up to suddenly and deliberately simulate action across then entire line to draw the defense across.

Call?

A false start includes both a shift that simulates the start of the play, and any act clearly designed to cause the defense to encroach.

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13 hours ago, Esso Ayche said:

Call on the field was offside on the D, now 1/5. 

And this is why coaches keep trying this illegal crap: because sometimes they get away with it. That crew just made it doubly tough on the crews that Coach is going to see the rest of the season.

And that’s encroachment. No such thing as “offsides” in high school football.

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On 10/9/2021 at 5:37 AM, Bobref said:

A false start includes both a shift that simulates the start of the play, and any act clearly designed to cause the defense to encroach.

- This is such a poorly defined/worded rule, I can see why officials would have trouble calling it.

Isn't a QB going on a "hard count" clearly trying to cause the defense to encroach??? "Ready.....Set.....HUT, HUT" - By rule, that should be a flag???

Or how about Flexbone teams that regularly send their Wing in motion that "simulates the start of the play" ....only to have him stop and return to his spot?? 

These things are commonly allowed

 

 

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2 hours ago, jets said:

Isn't a QB going on a "hard count" clearly trying to cause the defense to encroach??? "Ready.....Set.....HUT, HUT" - By rule, that should be a flag???

There are other, legitimate reasons, for a QB using a hard count. Now a “head bob” or some other actions by shotgun QBs is a different story. But I certainly agree with you that more clarity in the official interpretation of the rule would promote more consistency on the field.

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2 hours ago, jets said:

- This is such a poorly defined/worded rule, I can see why officials would have trouble calling it.

Isn't a QB going on a "hard count" clearly trying to cause the defense to encroach??? "Ready.....Set.....HUT, HUT" - By rule, that should be a flag???

Or how about Flexbone teams that regularly send their Wing in motion that "simulates the start of the play" ....only to have him stop and return to his spot?? 

These things are commonly allowed

 

 

They are commonly allowed because they are commonly done. They shouldn't surprise anyone. The team that does a sudden snap down only on 3rd and 3 or 4th and 2 or on a try is done specifically to get the defense to jump. If you want to do the sudden snap down on every down then it's less likely to draw attention on 4th and 4.

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2 minutes ago, JustRules said:

They are commonly allowed because they are commonly done. They shouldn't surprise anyone. The team that does a sudden snap down only on 3rd and 3 or 4th and 2 or on a try is done specifically to get the defense to jump. If you want to do the sudden snap down on every down then it's less likely to draw attention on 4th and 4.

In truth, most good coaches don’t use this kind of stuff. But it is routine to discuss potential “trick” plays in the pregame conference with coaches, and most coaches understand that this sort of thing should be discussed in advance, so everyone is on the same page. Although, I once had a Hall of Fame coach in a semistate tell me he was going to shift suddenly on 3rd or 4th and less than 5. I told him it was a foul. He did it anyway, and we flagged it as a false start. Incredibly, he did exactly the same thing in the final the next week … with exactly the same result. SMH

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21 minutes ago, JustRules said:

They are commonly allowed because they are commonly done. They shouldn't surprise anyone. The team that does a sudden snap down only on 3rd and 3 or 4th and 2 or on a try is done specifically to get the defense to jump. If you want to do the sudden snap down on every down then it's less likely to draw attention on 4th and 4.

How in the world do you define "commonly??" We just played a Flexbone team that ONLY did the wingback scenario I described late in the game while trying to draw us offsides. Wasn't flagged - nor do I think it should have been. 

Is "commonly done" once a series? Once a quarter? Once a half?? I've seen teams ONLY use a "hard count" on short yardage situations...is that COMMONLY enough?? 

Poorly worded and unclear rule. 

 

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5 hours ago, jets said:

How in the world do you define "commonly??" We just played a Flexbone team that ONLY did the wingback scenario I described late in the game while trying to draw us offsides. Wasn't flagged - nor do I think it should have been. 

Is "commonly done" once a series? Once a quarter? Once a half?? I've seen teams ONLY use a "hard count" on short yardage situations...is that COMMONLY enough?? 

Poorly worded and unclear rule. 

 

Hard count is different as it's a commonly accepted part of the game, but if the QB makes a sudden movement while doing it then it's likely a false start. If they only do the other actions we've discussed on 3rd or 4th and short then it's different than doing on various 1st and 2nd downs throughout the game. The best example is the wing backs going in motion shortly before the snap. Most teams that do that use that formation and action throughout the game.

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On 10/9/2021 at 3:12 PM, Bobref said:

And this is why coaches keep trying this illegal crap: because sometimes they get away with it. That crew just made it doubly tough on the crews that Coach is going to see the rest of the season.

And that’s encroachment. No such thing as “offsides” in high school football.

HSE did this vs Westfield last Friday.  On a punt in the first half.

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3 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Did it get called a false start? Is there video?

It did not....Westfield was flagged for jumping. 

Edit: Found it....49:43 mark in the video.  Also was a big deal about a holding call on HSE last drive that resulted in HSE getting a 1st down.

https://www.ihsaatv.org/?B=318093

Edited by US31
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26 minutes ago, jets said:

Hmm- interesting. Watching the 1A State Finals game and noticed Indy Lutheran has “snapped down” on punt attempts...but it is not part of their regular offense snap count. No flag however. 

I haven't seen anything I thought was unusual. Of course, I'm in the pressbox. 

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